Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[Sejs]

Baby and bathwater.

Being able to summon a celestial lion, say, is not the same thing as having galavanting about the multiverse on magical holiday as a significant (if even minorly so) feature of your campaign.

It's like saying a game features half-elves as a player race, therefor it's got to feature warforged, illumians, and raptorians. I mean, they're all playable races so it's the same thing after all.

 

[Sejs]

Planar Terrain Mastery doesn't show that the planes are tied to the class at all -- it shows that you *can't* take *any* planar abilities for the first 5 levels.

Ya lost me.

So, the class is in fact not tied to the outer planes at all, despite the fact that half of its class abilities are all about mastery of certain types of extraplanar terrain?

 

[Gez]

Arcane Archer because they're elves.

Dragon Disciple because bonus spells instead of spellcasting progression annoys me.

Thaumaturgist because I didn't even bothered to read its description.



If I use my house-rules, or if I DM a gestalt game, then I would also out Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge and similar multiclass patches. Otherwise, I'm fine with them.

 

[Klaus]

Yes, I am aware it's not required to take the planar abilities for levels 6-10. However, some degree of planes hopping is conceptually tied to the class itself, hence Planar Terrain Mastery.

As for the standpoint of "well, you don't have to take planar terrains" - there are 8 non-planar terrain types. It's a 10 level class. I'm curious; what do you propose a fully non-planar 10th level Horizon Walker take for their last two abilities?

Since the terrain mastery don't include Artic or Volcanic (for instance), I'd allow a Horizon Walker in a non-planar campaign to take the Cold and Fiery planar terrain masteries, representing those two non-planar extremes. And since fire-subtype and cold-subtype creatures tend to flock to those locations, the bonus to attack them can remain.

 

[Particle_Man]

Blackguard: The game already has bad guys - the champion of evil doesn't sit well with my personal concept of the campaign world.

Red Wizard: Again, this time it's personal, relative to my game world.

Duelist: Ok, *this* one just is soooooooo mechanically weak. I mean it takes a lot for a class to be so weak that it makes Swashbuckler look like a great alternative.

 

[Particle_Man]

Has anyone from the "Mystic Theurges are powerful" answered this?

They are less powerful than a single-classed wizard with the Leadership feat and a cleric cohort (or vice versa). I have never figured out what made people scared of the relatively low power of the Mystic Theurge.

This was about Mystic Theurges, and no one from the "Mystic Theurges are too powerful" side has ever answered it on any thread that I have seen on any messageboard. Given that MT's need the feat Practiced Spellcaster to up their effective caster level (so none of that "you are a feat behind" argument), if you ban MT's because they are "too powerful", do you also ban the Leadership feat?

 

[I'm A Banana]

So, the class is in fact not tied to the outer planes at all, despite the fact that half of its class abilities are all about mastery of certain types of extraplanar terrain?

By Jove, I think he's got it!

A Horizon Walker who has never traveled more than 10 ft. from his cottage gets access to every kind of terrain mastery anyway. The HW isn't tied to ANY particular environment.

Furthermore, I see no reason that some of the "planar" terrain masteries don't also apply to perfectly normal material sites. You don't have volcanoes (firey) or the arctic (cold)? You don't have the underground (cavernous)? You don't have areas of great evil, or great good (aligned)?

None of the requirements for HW say that you have to have traveled anywhere, or that you ever will. The flavor says you try to, and that could be all offscreen (before the character enters the campaign, or after the campaign is over). Heck, it could've been all within 10 ft. (the flavor just says they travel the most dangerous lands, not all dangerous environments).

You don't need planar travel...or even an adventure in more than a 10 x 10 room...to use any of the HW's abilities. By the RAW.

 

[Psion]

Why is it not the PrC "as-is"? My copy of the DMG says you can take any terrain you want after 5th.

But it doesn't say you can't take the planar abilities. As-is, it's a plane-walking PrC.

We could debate meanings all day; it's really largely pointless. Though you may not see it as an implicitly planar PrC, you asked why other people have problems with it, and obviously their perception differs. You can't ask other people what their perceptions are and then argue away their perceptions.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Dragon Disciple, if you want to transform into a half dragon just break down its ECL and gain it point by point (like in savage species).

I also dislike the assassin cause it is based around 1 ability (death attack).
I also dislike the red wizard because for some specializations its awesome but for others it sucks.
But I only voted for dragon disciple because I just can't stand it.

 

[DungeonMaster]

My best educated guess:
Get used to disappointment.

I'm not so sure. Kits died in the transition from 2nd to 3rd so there's hope that "prestige classes" likewise get their ass booted in 4th.
The only disturbing thing is that kits were much more balanced and flavorful than PrC so the trend would be that things get worse, not better as time goes forward. But that's judging off of a single data point.