Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[DungeonMaster]

He doesn't need to. He has 40 more skill points to spend on jacking up his Bluff skill, his Hide skill, and so on. He has slippery mind, or crippling strike, or opportunist, or some other special ability that is more than equal to the difficult to set up (3 rounds is an eternity most of the time), and difficult to pull off death attack

Oh no! not crippling strike! or slippery mind! I'll just have to cry myself to sleep for having hide in plain sight, death attack, 4 levels of spells, poison use and bonuses to poison!
The hilarious thing is I'm starting to think you actually beleive this .

Well, it comes from actually reading the book, which you, by your own admission. haven't bothered to do. You see, 40 skill points is a huge gap, the rogue special abilities compare quite well to the assassin's abilities, and so on.

And so on eh? Where's the so on? You know the actual comparison? 3 special abilities are worth 4 levels of casting, hide in plain sight, poison use, bonuses to saves? 40 skill points is not that much, it's a 1st level of rogue with a starting +2 int. It's a couple of skill enhancing items, that are cheap. Like greater slippery armor.
Dude. Wake up. It's not too late to admit you're wrong.

Honestly it's been fun, though it has drifted off topic. I've gotten a glimpse of what a true beleiver is like and it's slightly frightening. But until the 1+1's start adding up correctly, I am disarmed. No amount of logic will prevail. Until that time, rattle away Storm Raven, you clearly have more time than I do or will have in coming days. I'll let you have the last word, even if it's as illogical and contradictory as your previous words.

 

[Storm Raven]

Oh no! not crippling strike! or slippery mind! I'll just have to cry myself to sleep for having hide in plain sight, death attack, 4 levels of spells, poison use and bonuses to poison!
The hilarious thing is I'm starting to think you actually beleive this .

But it's not just one special ability. It's three, plus 40 skill points, plus trap sense. yes, the assassin gets two special abilities and spells (12 total, oh my!) and poison stuff, but he misses out on a bunch too. That's the trade off. In 2e, with kits, you had no trade off, you just added a bunch of abilities to your character sheet, usually for "role-playing" limitations that didn't really exist.

And I'm not sure you quite understand how difficult a death attack is to pull off. You have to spend three rounds observing the target. Even invisible and hiding, that is difficult to pull off against most CR appropriate opponents once you reach the mid- to high- levels. It's a nice ability, but it is so rare that you can actually do it, as opposed to, say Opportunist, which you can have a reasonable chance of doing every round in combat (and, if you are reasonably smart, will mostly be sneak attacks to boot), that the infrenquency of its application makes it not as cool as you seem to think it is.

And so on eh? Where's the so on? You know the actual comparison? 3 special abilities are worth 4 levels of casting, hide in plain sight, poison use, bonuses to saves? 40 skill points is not that much, it's a 1st level of rogue with a starting +2 int. It's a couple of skill enhancing items, that are cheap. Like greater slippery armor.
Dude. Wake up. It's not too late to admit you're wrong.

It's not a 1st level rogue, its pushing your skill levels to the point where you can make skill checks of such extreme difficulty that you may as well have the ability to cast spells. The 1st level rogue doesn't get you 23 ranks in Bluff. He gets you 4. There is a significant difference in the uses for those two arrays of abilities.

Skill enhancing items huh? Once again, your argument is "I don't need abilities, I can just spend my way out of not having them". Sure, I guess that might make sense, but on the other hand, I could just say "the rogue can offset the assassin's spell casting ability by buying wands and using his insanely high Use Magic Device skill to use them." In the end, you compare characters based on their abilities, not based on what you could buy to offset those abilities, becuase the other side could always counter by buying other things.

Honestly it's been fun, though it has drifted off topic. I've gotten a glimpse of what a true beleiver is like and it's slightly frightening. But until the 1+1's start adding up correctly, I am disarmed. No amount of logic will prevail. Until that time, rattle away Storm Raven, you clearly have more time than I do or will have in coming days. I'll let you have the last word, even if it's as illogical and contradictory as your previous words.

Well, given that I've read the rules, and you clearly haven't, your arguments continue to make no sense. Your probelm is that you aren't using logic, or that your logic is so crippled by your lack of understanding of the rules of the game that your statements amount to gibberish.

 

[CRGreathouse]

But has no problems running with 5 levels of redwizard, 5 levels of archamge, 1 level of the arcane order or other blah/blech/blue/blam "builds" that can hit ACs of 229 or caster levels into the 50's?
Sounds like he needs medication.

He'd have problems with Red Wizard since it's a FR class, but no problems with archmage. I've never used the other prestige class you mention -- is that from Complete Arcane?

We've played games (with me DMing) running to levels in the mid-20s and no one's come close to hitting AC 229 or caster level 50, despite having prestige classes. I allow nearly 100 prestige classes, so I don't think it's the lack of selection.

 

[Storm Raven]

Sure, of course not. You're trying to make up twice, 2, that number I keep repeating add-nauseum that you're just not getting for reasons unknown, 2 times the gear and not losing significant XP. My we're all numbers tonight aren't we? 88 000 GP for 12th level and that's 3520 XP a completely insignifican hit in XP .

Actually, it's more like 1,770 XP. You are splitting crafting duties with your cohort, and his experience points, by the rules, are essentially free.

YEP. Next time an invisible dragon surprises them, because they can cast spells too you know, and breathes on them I'll say they're dumb. Your not making a good case for yourself...

High level characters are hard to surpirse with invisible opponents. There are so many counters and skills that work to defeat them that it becomes a much less useful tactic at that point.

How are you gaining money out of deal. You said it will cost less. My maths skillz ar'nt tha god, I dinna under'fand how youse mak more frum (1+1)/2 > 1.
Jesus this is hopeless.

Because I have a wider array of Item Crafting feats to use to make items, and thus I can get the "I crafted the item and it cost less" benefit on a higher percentage of the equipment I use. Keep up here.

Plus, despite your yelping, you don't really need a lot of bonuses to get your cohort to have more than enough ability to survive combat. Compare two actual characters (not the various hypotheticals that just amount to your saying "but I can have this, and this, and spend 30,000 gp on that", and so on). Two characters, both 12th level (since you seem to like that level), standard elite array of stats:

Wizard 12: S 8, I 18 (15 + 3 points for level), W 10, D 13, C 12, Ch 14 (so I can have a good cohort). 4 available feat slots, plus 2 wizard bonus feat slots.

Hit points 43.5 (average), Fort +5, Reflex +5, Will +8

Wiz 3, Clr 3, MT 6: S 8, I 16 (15 + 1 point for level), W 16 (14 + 2 points for level), D 13, C 12, Ch 10 (note that the lower Charisma hampers his turning abilitiy, but to change it, you would have to give up Dex or Con, save bonuses and/or hit points). 4 available feat slots.

Hit points 51.5 (average), Fort +7, Reflex +5, Will +14

The MT is a lot better at Will saves, but not much better off in Fortitude saves, and exactly equal in Reflex saves (which most AoEs are). Now, the straight wizard, having a couple "extra" feats from being a wizard, uses one of his regular feats on Leadership, getting himself a cleric cohort:

Cleric 10, S 13, I 8, W 17 (15 + 2 points for level), D 10, C 14, Ch 12. 3 available feat slots.

His poitns 68.5 (average), Fort +9, Reflex +3, Will +10

Now, I thought you said I'd have trouble keeping the cohort alive. He has more hit points on average than either PC, and his unenhanced saves compare very favorably. Note also, that the wizard has a higher save DC for all his spells, while the cohort's save DCs are exactly equal to the MT's. The MT is a lower caster level than the cohort too. The MT is still coming out behind. Between the PC and his cohort, I've spent one feat out of a total of 9, while the MT has four. I can blow a couple feats on save enhancing feats. Let's give the cohort Lightning Reflexes, to bring his Reflex save up to +5.

Now, let's talk about magic items. Both PCs should have 88,000 gp at their disposal. You keep wanting to blow money on orange ioun stones, and metamagic rods of quicken. Well, the orange ioun stone costs 30,000 gp, and a lesser metamagic rod of quicken costs 35,000 gp, so you've eaten up most of your money there (leaving you with 23,000 gp). You can buy a cloak of resistance +4 for 16,000 gp, leaving you 7,000 gp. Your saves end up looking like this: Fort +11, Reflex +9, Will +18. Pretty nifty.

The wizard and his cohort, on the other hand, get some items too. Both get cloaks of reistance +4, for 32,000 gp, Leaving the wizard with 51,00 gp in items to spend. Now their saves end up like this:

Wizard: Fort +9 Reflex +9, Will +12
Cleric Cohort: Fort +13, Reflex +9, Will +14

Except for the disparity in the Will saves, there are in the same range as one another. Given that the cohoirt has more than 15 more hit points than the MT, I'm thinking his suriviability isn't a problem. Plus, the wizard and his cleric firend have 51,000 gp left to spend, and the MT only has 7,000. Granted, his caster level is now equal to the cohort, but he still lags two behind the wizard. And while the MT can cast two spells in a round three times per day (and one of them has to be a 3rd level or lower spell), the wizard and his cohort can accomplish much the same thing to the extent that they have spell slots.

The MT could get a stat enhancing item or two, but he's probably going to want to buy some defense instead, like bracers of armor, and maybe an amulet of natural armor (which, by the way, he wouldn't be able to wear with a periapt of wisdom), and that will consume most of his available cash. The wizard buys relatively cheap nonmagical armor for his cohort and equips himself with some bracers an amulet, and still has thousands of gold pieces left to buy himself a headband of intellect and his cohort a periapt of wisdom, jacking up their save DCs even more compared to the MT, and giving them more bonus spells to boot.

And this all leaves aside, for a moment, the fact that the cohort, when recruited, arrives with gear appropriate to his level (see the text of the discussion on leadership in the DMG, or the SRD if you prefer), meaning that you don't have to do the intiial equipping of the cohort out the the wizard's funds. Yet another portion of your argument collapses when subjected to the light of day.

I also note than the wizard + cohort combination has it all over the MT in terms of sundry abiilities too. The cohort turns as a 10th level cleric, four times per day, and his Charisma adds to his ability. The MT turns as a 3rd level cleric, twice per day, and his Charisma serves as a penalty to his ability. He also has a familiar with the abilities of a 3rd level wizard, which likely severely hampers his familar's survivability (he's probably better off without one at that point). The straight wizard has a familiar with the special abilities of a companion to a 12th level character (for what those are worth).

Oh, the wizard and his cohort have 13 more skill points between them than the MT has.

The wizard/cohort combo is pretty much way ahead overall. And I haven't crafted a single thing. In the face of reality, your argument crumbles like the houe of cards it is.

Oh I see. The game is only 2 rounds long every day. Well I guess I'll have to duck out for those 2 rounds, you know being out-classed and all.

I see you haven't played out many high level combats. High level combat tends to be over fast, in a handful of rounds. Being outclassed by three top level spells is a huge deal.

Why praytell did you stop there?

Because no one has said that the MT doesn't have a lot of lower level spells. It's just that, over the course of a day (especially at higher levels) you usually end up with many more spell slots than you can use anyway, so having a pile of 1st level spells isn't that big a deal most of the time, since a high proportion of them will simply go uncast.

Your wizard has 4 4th level spells and the MT has 5. You get 4 3rd level spells and the MT has 6. And bonus spells too! Oh you only get one bonus spell pool. Too bad.
And my MT would never think of becoming a specialist either. Not with a whole frigging spell pool of magic on the other side.

The MT has 5 4th level spells. The wizard/cohort have 8. The MT has 6 3rd level spells. The wizard/cohort have 8. Too bad your argument falls apart so easily. In any event, even leaving aside the cohort, I think I'd rather have more 5th and 6th level spells than 3rd and 4th level spells. I would think that was obvious, but with you, I'm not so sure.

And the wizard only has to worry about one set of bonus spells per character, meaning he can bump up his single spell casting statistic high and easier than the MT can bump both of his. All things being equal, the wizard/cohort have more bonus spells on average than the MT has. Too bad you didn't actually work out the details before you ran yourself off the rails on that.

I won't dignify that with reply and honestly your tone is not becoming of someone who repeatedly contradicts himself from one paragraph to the next and has found unique formula for 1+1.

I'm not sure I have to use anything other than a tone of incredulity when discussing the rules with someone who knows so little about them. Your arguments tear like wet paper towels when subjected to any sort of examination. I'd quit too if I were you, and it became as obvious as it has that you just don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Storm Raven]

Work on that one for awhile if it's less mystifying then someone disliking 3.5.

That's not what mystifies him. What is mystifying is that you are discussing 3.5e rules having admitted that you haven't bothered to read them.

 

[iksander]

Well Dungeon Master is wrong on one account, MT can't be qualified for with Precocious Apprentice. Trick is in the phrasing of the second paragraph of the PA feat.

The 229 AC character is the Wizard CO board special, although it was an attempt to jack AC through the roof, not make an effective character.

Jacking caster levels through the roof is typically done with items, a la ankh of ascension, orange ioun stones, etc. Their are some feats that allow the caster level to be jacked, its typical used in builds concentrating on holy word, etc.

Although DM does have a point, prcs do lead to power creep, (but them again nearly every supplements escalates power with additional choices in feats, spells, items, etc...). What can can ya say outside the fact that additional choices tend to equal power.

 

[Storm Raven]

Although DM does have a point, prcs do lead to power creep, (but them again nearly every supplements escalates power with additional choices in feats, spells, items, etc...). What can can ya say outside the fact that additional choices tend to equal power.

I woudl say that additional choices tend to equal additional choices. Whether they equal additional power depends on the choices. They will offer more flexibility, and many people confuse flexibility for power, but with the design set up that the rules embody, most choices involve giving up a different option in exchange for the one you chose.

Most peopel (DungeonMaster among them) tend to think about what high level characters with "X, Y, and Z" options can do, and declare that this combination is "broken". What most of these arguments miss is this: most high level D&D characters are powerful no matter what you do (unless you do the most counterproductive things possible, like building a sorcerer with a 9 Charisma or similar nonsense). What matters is what you gave up to get X, Y, and Z options compared to what X, Y, and Z options give you.

Many options allow characters to specialize, which makes them seem powerful, but those options forego other abilities that would give a more diverse array of abilities (the assassin is a good example of this, he gives up a pile of spendable skill points effectively for a handful of spells per day, he gets the very specific death attack ability, but gives up more versatile rogue special abilities, and so forth). Some PrCs are overpowered, but that's not a general issue. It certainly isn't evidenced by the PrCs in the 3.5 DMG (contrary to what DungeonMaster thinks), or PrCs in general. I could point to some PrCs that are overpowered, but that's a design flaw of those PrCs, not the concept of more choices.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Sigh... sure why not I'm actually not doing anything today.

Because, clearly, you're incapable of understanding anything I type as a reasoned argument, Storm Raven let's have a little fun.
How about you go and write up a 12th level wizard and his cohort and I'll write up a plain 12th level MT, with no leadership feat?
Standard gold, standard array for ability scores 15,14,13,12,10,8. PHB, no other Prestige classes, MM and DMG only. You get no benefits associate with leadership from anything ( though I'm sorely tempted to ascribe "failure") and have a familiar like any other wizard.
We'll even assume, as you've done among all the other blithering, that you get to pick your cohort's feats rather than have the DM write up the NPC you've attracted as a cohort.
If you want a spell on your wizard's spell list you have to pay for the scroll (standard price) and the standard scribing cost.

 

[Storm Raven]

Because, clearly, you're incapable of understanding anything I type as a reasoned argument, Storm Raven let's have a little fun.

You have yet to make a reasoned argument in this thread.

How about you go and write up a 12th level wizard and his cohort and I'll write up a plain 12th level MT, with no leadership feat?
Standard gold, standard array for ability scores 15,14,13,12,10,8. PHB, no other Prestige classes, MM and DMG only. You get no benefits associate with leadership from anything ( though I'm sorely tempted to ascribe "failure") and have a familiar like any other wizard.
We'll even assume, as you've done among all the other blithering, that you get to pick your cohort's feats rather than have the DM write up the NPC you've attracted as a cohort.

I already did that. Perhaps you didn't notice amidst all your whining. The MT lost out at every turn, pretty much having built him as well as possible to build him. If you think you can build a better MT, go ahead, but you will find that you are severley hampered by having to deal with two spellcasting attributes, and end up having lots of troubles keeping up financially because of your apparent heavy reliance on insanely expensive magic items to "offset" the natural advantages of the wizard/cohort.

 

[iksander]

Heh, if only it was so easy. Not all additional choices were created equal. And sometimes the equal ones dont always stack well with each other.

Sometimes you give up nothing (Ie cleric levels for most cleric PrCs levels, etc...) or lose a small bit for big bennies (Wizard to incantatrix, etc...). Their are other classes whose possible abuse only comes out with mixing PrCs (Ie: Crazy MT builds using Urpriest and Sublime chord, etc...).

Now I'd like to state that I like prestige classes and feats, as it allows a great deal of customization, but it opens the game up to power creep; whether the power creep is due to cherry picking class levels or due to somethings being flat out better.