Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[dnabre]

Hello brick wall? Are you there? I really enjoy talking to you.
It seems like people have lost track of the discussion. The MT is equivalent to a cohort + wizard. The MT is superior to the lone single-classed character. The MT with leadership categorically dwarfs the wizard + cohort.
Since the MT's metamagic superiority is not recognized (very very foolish) all I do is can them.

THE URGE
Human Evoker3/Clr3/Urge6

THE DEMIURGE
Dwarven Druid 10
So he brings to the party, well everything he had before - 1 quicken rod and a ring no one cared about. Oh yeah and druidic magic. Oh did I say druidic magic? I think I did.
You have a small handful of 6th level spells. And nothing more. Now's the time to go back and read all my posts again.

What's the prohibited schools? Do double check your math, it's wrong is a few places.

For the MT vs. Full Caster + Cohort comparison, you've given no reasons to think the MT is in anyway better. The reasons you keep reiterating don't make sense to me. How is a MT better at metamagic than a full caster?

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

How is a MT better at metamagic than a full caster?

Apparently, because he can have metamagic rods. :\

 

[Particle_Man]

The problem was that the wizard has the feat to spare for Leadership because a) the Wizard gets bonus feats, and b) the Wizard doesn't need to buy something like "Practiced Spellcaster" to raise his effective caster level.

The Mystic Theurge can have a cohort, but that costs yet anther of his precious feats.

I suppose the Wizard could switch out his cohort for a druid instead of a cleric, if we want to compare them in equal druidity...

 

[Storm Raven]

ADMIT UTTER AND TOTAL DEFEAT IN THE FACE OF THE URGE AND THE DEMIURGE.

You are funny. You might have an argument - if you had statted your characters out correctly. As it is, your ability scores are all wrong, your math is screwed up, and (most importantly) you calculated your Leadership score. You also messed up your cash (you cannot afford your precious maximize rod).

You still have a lower caster level for your spells, by quite a bit, and your save DCs are lower. You cast fewer high level spells. Your sundry clerical abilities are a joke (do keep posting how you get freedom of movement as a domain power, the 3 rounds per day you can use it is really humorous).

Fix your problems with your character. I think you will find the experience illuminating.

 

[Testament]

I think its become beyond pointless. The foolishness of this argument is being trampled by the superior fool.

The MT is a hideously weak PrC, end of story. And ooooh, he has metamagic rods (that he's using illegally). Now give a real caster those rods and watch the oh so borken MT get splattered all the faster.

Sorry DungeonMaster, your whining and tooth-gnashing isn't convincing anyone here. I think maybe you should just give up, and go back to your own certainity. And at any rate, how can I not side with the faction that includes a fan of "Azumanga Daioh!"?

 

[Kem]

Sorry DungeonMaster, your whining and tooth-gnashing isn't convincing anyone here. I think maybe you should just give up, and go back to your own certainity. And at any rate, how can I not side with the faction that includes a fan of "Azumanga Daioh!"?

Just to get on topic, I picked assassin, and almost also hit Blackguard.

Once someone in the partry becomes one they tend to be rather anti-party. They are not overpowered in the sense that they are too good. They just are not ones I'd want a PC taking in a typical party. Assassin more then Blackguard.

I would only allow an assassin if the whole party decided to join the guild. Otherwise the jobs the assassin will end up taking will always seem to be related to what the party has to do.

 

[Storm Raven]

Once someone in the partry becomes one they tend to be rather anti-party. They are not overpowered in the sense that they are too good. They just are not ones I'd want a PC taking in a typical party. Assassin more then Blackguard.

I use assassins and blackguards (and even red wizards), as NPCs. They are there for the PCs to fight, not for the PCs to be.

 

[DungeonMaster]

You are funny. You might have an argument - if you had statted your characters out correctly. As it is, your ability scores are all wrong, your math is screwed up, and (most importantly) you calculated your Leadership score. You also messed up your cash (you cannot afford your precious maximize rod).

Everything is adjusted.
My leadership score is the same as yours - exact same.

You still have a lower caster level for your spells, by quite a bit, and your save DCs are lower. You cast fewer high level spells. Your sundry clerical abilities are a joke (do keep posting how you get freedom of movement as a domain power, the 3 rounds per day you can use it is really humorous).

Sadly, it's significantly more power than you can muster.

Fix your problems with your character. I think you will find the experience illuminating.

What I've found is the increadible, absolutely increadible, amount of bias coming from this 3.5 stronghold. I of course expected a lot but it's really nothing short of intellectual dishonesty.
On the other hand I'm very heartened and "illuminated" by the fact that a sizeable majority of silent posters immediately recognize the insanity that is the Mystic Theurge and that is reflected in the poll.
Hopefully, in the future we will finally banish the spectre of the be-all and end-all divine/arcane caster of 2nd edition and it will never rear its head again.

 

[Testament]

In the immortal words of Black Mage: LANDBRIDGE!

How is a character who does what two do, only BADLY, powerful?! Your spell access is weak, you never get 9th level spells, your DCs are inferior, you have to take Practiced Spellcaster twice JUST TO KEEP UP, and you have MAD to boot.

How is this insanely powerful?

Why are we bothering? You really can't say much for the intelligence of anyone who gives up abjuration though, probably the most important spell school. Or someone who's taking part in this discussion without having read the core rulebooks.

 

[Snowy]

perhaps it would be more sensible to think about the comparison in abstract terms rather than using specific spells. feats or items?
I mean any character can take any feat (that they qualify for) or learn a spell or use an item.

So maybe looking at it in this format.

Human Wizard level 10

Has three important stats con dex and int

str 8
dex 16
con 16
int 16
wis 8
cha 8

30 point buy split the simplest way (and 2 points extra from levels (not included))

BAB +5

Has 5 regular feats and scribe scroll summon famliar and 2 bonus meta magic feats

can cast wizard 4 0th 5 1st 5 2nd 4 3rd 3 4th 2 5th

skill points 5x13 (ignoring stat increases) wizards list

Human Mystic theurge (wizard 3 cleric 3 theurge 4)

Has four important stats con dex int and wis

str 8
dex 13
con 13
int 16
wis 16
cha 8

or

str 8
dex 14
con 14
int 16
wis 15
cha 8

30 point buy split the simplest way (I'd probably pick the second as best?) (and 2 points extra from levels (not included))

BAB +5

Has 5 regular feats and scribe scroll summon famliar.

turn undead as a 3rd level cleric 2x per day

can cast wizard 4 0th 5 1st 4 2nd 4 3rd 2 4th
can cast cleric 6 0th 6 1st 5 2nd 3 3rd 2 4th

has two domain powers (if level limited ones at level 3, makes sense to pick the non-level linked ones!)

skill points 5x6 (wizard) 5x3 (cleric) and 5x4 (theurge) (ignoring stat increases)
must take knowledge arcana 6 ranks and knowledge religon 6 ranks.