Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[Yair]

I voted for arcane trickster. The concept is just so annoying.

In my current campaing I allow everything, out of simply encouraging my players to seekk out new worlds an... ehn... more gaming products. For some reason they are too lazy to check out the great wealth of d20 products out there, and I decided I'll make them join the fun whether they like it or not.

 

[Snowy]

oh yeah, i forgot, assassin as I dislike insta-kills, second up would be me modifying lots of the rest to make them more flavourful or less setting specific, red wizard for setting, and gragon disciple for flavour (i'd make it more of a casting class I think, unless someone wanted it the way it was, ooh possibly make it similar to a were-creature class)

 

[Snowy]

out of interest whats wrong with the lore master those of you who posted? I'm hoping to play one sometime

 

[Storm Raven]

Everything is adjusted.
My leadership score is the same as yours - exact same.

That was one of your errors, your stats are out of whack, and it gave you a Leadership score that is too high. The problem now is that you weren't able to recruit your cohort until you were 12th level (or your Leadership score to recruit them would have been lower, and your cohort would have started less powerful).

Really, the main problem with your build, and why it remains unconvincing, is that the bulk of your power relies upon magic items you could not get until your became 12th level. At 11th level, no ioun stones, no monk's belt, your AC is screwed, your stats go down (including your Charisma, screwing your Leadership score), you lose the caster level bonus you cherish so much.

In point of fact, the Urge build only looks good once you hit 12th level, and then it compared unfavorably with a single classed caster in the critical areas of save DCs, caster level, and high level spells. Your wizard spell book is a joke. Before 1th level, you cannot craft the items you use to prop yourself up (and you cannot afford many others that you are using), after 12th level, the increase in wealth swamps the impact of these items (and you start falling seriously behind in caster level).

You picked (intentionally of course) the "sweet spot" for the MT. And you still came up short.

Sadly, it's significantly more power than you can muster.

Only in a world where the delusional reign.

What I've found is the increadible, absolutely increadible, amount of bias coming from this 3.5 stronghold. I of course expected a lot but it's really nothing short of intellectual dishonesty.

That is really humorous coming from someone who doesn't understand the simple concept that "higher save DCs, higher caster level, higher levels spells = better spell caster".

On the other hand I'm very heartened and "illuminated" by the fact that a sizeable majority of silent posters immediately recognize the insanity that is the Mystic Theurge and that is reflected in the poll.

Of course, the vast majority of people voted before you posted your argument, and since then, no one who has posted has thought your assessment had merit, even after seeing your "super powerful" Urge builds. What you have demonstrated, at best, is that metamagic rods are too powerful, not that the MT is a problem.

 

[Kem]

I'll start by saying a Cleric is better then a Myth. Taking Myth Levels loses too much from the cleric. You're only hope is to replace the mage. However if you don't REALLY want to be a cleric, and would rather be a wizard, but noone wants to be the cleric, then a Myth might be for you.

If you are the only caster, then sure the Myth is perfect for you. It adds both types of magic to the party (eventually, levels 4-11 are especially PAINFUL powerwise, at 12 it gets better, but be ready to be a support character)

What I've found is the increadible, absolutely increadible, amount of bias coming from this 3.5 stronghold. I of course expected a lot but it's really nothing short of intellectual dishonesty.

I notice alot of bias coming from the 3.0 "Stronghold". Funny that.

So here is some simple math.

The Single Class caster will have 3-5 more of their highest 3 levels of spells then you will have of those same 3 levels.

Let me put it this way. The bard gets 3rd level spells before you do. The Bard. The bard also gets 4th level spells at the same time you do. THE BARD. And the BARD is a spontanous spellcaster, like the sorc with a slow progression. Bard, The. People always seem to pick the high levels. Try getting there sometime. Hope you like waiting till level 8 to get that fireball you love to metamagic so much. Level Eight. At level 12 you just got Teleport and Feeblemind.

The Wizard or Cleric has access to them 3 levels BEFORE you do. And the same with those metamagiced versions of the spells. This is not a "We are both level X, lets see how we fare". You are trying to compete, while its taken you longer to get those high level slots you need to be effective (watch your build disappear at level 11 or lower), while the other character is like "Are you serious? We did that 3 levels ago, look at these better spells that we need." At 13th level, the wizard gets access to cleric spells via limited wish. However, since most of the time, the wizard is casting wizard spells and leaving cleric spells to the cleric, its only needed in an emergency. Scroll it.

My top 20% is better then your top 20%. I don't care where your 20% comes from, mine is better. My Next 20% is your next 20%. Thats 2 encounters where I am better then you. My top spell is better then your top spell. Thats one encounter where my spell is always, going to be better then your top spell. Lower level spells may vary in usefulness based on situation, however in general higher level spells are more useful, and better then lower level spells.

My HP will either be close, or much better then your HP. You have 4 primary stats (Wis/Int/Dex/Con) while I have 3 (Int/Con/Dex). This also means our AC will be about the same as we likely rate Con > Dex. Also even discounting wisdom, our Cons are likely to be near the same, your leg up on HP is 13 if you take cleric first, 9.5 if you don't. 2 Points of con near level 10, or improved toughness (extra feat). Keep in mind that 13 HP matters most at lower levels, where your spell selection will suck. Hard. Also you will have cleric spells, not wizard spells, so you are actually a cleric at this point while they are a wizard. Thats a wash.

Items. We have equal access, except for the fact that the Straight Wizard has 2 extra feats that are either metamagic or item creation. As such they have a crafting/spellcasting advantage right there, I'd say that about evens out with domains. If not exceeds. Discount all magic items then, except that the wizard can have a bonus here.

Skills, the Myth is required to spend extra skill points in religion. This lowers the skill points. Also, the Myth is likely to not add all points form leveling into Int, they can however, so the main point sink is religion. Since Int for Wizards is of more importance then wisdom for clerics, I am betting that the higher of the two will be int.

Saves. Multiclassing wins. Bug/Feature of the system. By the book, Myth will have higher will/fort saves. With fraction saves, only better will save (due to wisdom) and fort save (due to cleric levels).

Bab: Both of these guys miss. Unless its touch, or true struck or some other magic to hit. Their STR is likely to be rather... Questionable, so they would both do better to rely on their magic. Just as the Wizard should, and the Myth has plenty to spare.

You Get cleric spells. Which don't matter unless you replace the cleric in the party. Otherwise the cleric in the party does that, and you are supposed to play wizard. As such your cleric spells support the main cleric. Since your cleric spells are duplicated in the party, they are not as worthwhile. If it was a druid, you would end up with healing duties (after combat, not too much during, you get HEAL really late, even AFTER the druid gets it).

You have wizard spells. Which only matter if you replace the wizard. If you do replace the wizard, there is nothing you can do as a wizard, that a straight wizard can't do better. Your cleric spells are duplicated in partry already, so that advantage is eh. Higher level spells are needed for the wizard to perform at their peak. Just as a Cleric would have heal 3 levels before you, a wizard has key wizard spells 3 levels before you. Like teleport, Greater Dispelling, dispel magic, and anything else that is higher then level 2. Like fly, and overland flight.

On the other hand I'm very heartened and "illuminated" by the fact that a sizeable majority of silent posters immediately recognize the insanity that is the Mystic Theurge and that is reflected in the poll.
Hopefully, in the future we will finally banish the spectre of the be-all and end-all divine/arcane caster of 2nd edition and it will never rear its head again.

Yeah. Its a 3rd tier class in the poll. Red Wizard is top tier, Dragon Disciple is second tier. This is a "Which class would you not want in your campaign" not a "Which class is too broken to be allowed in your campaign poll". I voted Assassin because of campaign issues with having a PC assassin.

Look at archmage, argueably one of the best caster PrCs out there. 26 votes. 5th tier. Look at all the classes "Better" then archmage. But you see, people don't have campaign issues with an archamge, they make sense and can be seen in most popular fantasy literature. They don't cause intra party issues (Blackguard/Assassin), they don't have irritating powers that could get out of hand(DD), or deal with summoning creatures. Their powers are all straightforward, and non-complicated.

Also 63/326 is not a sizeable majority.

And since they are silent, you have no clue if they agree with you or not. Only that they don't want a Myth in their campaign for whatever reason. Some people dislike it because they don't like it, or like the idea of it, not because its too good. Other people feel that having the two types of spellcasting is just something noone should have (not that its overpowered, they just don't want the option to have both).

Other people say no because of discussions like this that they want to avoid.

People who vote the same as you don't always agree with your reason for voting that way.

Case in point, one person voted against assassin because they hate insta kills. I don't care about insta kills, as wizards get one at 1st level (sleep is effectivly instant death).

 

[Kem]

out of interest whats wrong with the lore master those of you who posted? I'm hoping to play one sometime

Only thing I can think of is that its better suited as an NPC class. Although it could also be that they give up very, very little and gain alot (not really alot, but alot of what they spent they get back, and then some).

 

[Storm Raven]

You are trying to compete, while its taken you longer to get those high level slots you need to be effective (watch your build disappear at level 11 or lower), while the other character is like "Are you serious? We did that 3 levels ago, look at these better spells that we need."

The only truly fair way to look at an MT vs. a straight caster is to work them up through the levels from first. Then you can see how the MT struggles from levels 4 through 11, how he only partially catches up from 12 through 15, and then falls behind again at levels 16+.

It would also allow for "organic" development of magic items. Many of the items relied on by the "Urge build" aren't craftable before level 12, and certainly aren't affordable for him without dipping heavily into his available cash prior to that. He'll likely have to burn a fair amount of his cash on items that would be less than useful later on, rather than being able to spend himself down to pennies on the exact perfect selection of items to offset his glaring weaknesses.

And then you have to put him in play. By the time you hit mid- to high- levels, most spell casters don't burn through all of their spell slots in a day. They just have that many already, so they have some that just don't get used. This means that a lot of the "extra" spells that an MT comes with become surplusage, and not all that useful in real play.

The "Urge" example is interesting, but it shows just how contorted the MT has to be to keep up with the straight caster, and, when you look at it with any kind of honest evaluation, demonstrates just how difficult being an MT is, since so much of his "powers" don't kick in until he hits 12th level and he has the cash and ability to craft the items he desperately needs.

 

[Storm Raven]

has two domain powers (if level limited ones at level 3, makes sense to pick the non-level linked ones!)

Using the core rules, this limits you to the Chaos, Evil, Good, Healing, Law, Luck, and War domains and half of the Knowledge domain (+1 caster level for divinations). The Animal domain might also half-qualify, but the domain ability does not specify the effective caster level of its granted spell-like ability. Most of these domain abilities are not that impressive overall.

 

[ARandomGod]

Horizon Walker is the only one that really wouldn't fit into a campaign in my homebrew.

Interestingly enough, I think that this PrC is the one that by default has to fit into every campaign. So perhaps they don't fit in with what your world has IN it... they came from outside! Anything can happen outside.

No Dragon Disciples (as no half-dragons) and no Horizon Walkers (absolutely no plane-hopping in my campaigns, ever).

Pretty simple.

Even here, so there's no hopping IN your plane. Things can still get trapped there from outside of it. Unless, of course, there are no fire elementals/other outsiders at all.

I don't have plane hopping in any of my games either. But I've had HW's in them.

If I were to pick one, it would be the arcane archer. Because that's just aweful. Especially in 3.5 ... But I'd allow someone to play it if they wanted to. I'd even switch the bonus they get so that their class enhancement to arrows would stack with magic bow bonuses, the way the class was intended. I don't like the fact that it's racist however. I drop all that racist fluff when I run games. (PS, those who think it's overpowered this way, rule it 3.5 and it goes away.)

After experiencing the Mystic Thurge in one of my campaigns, I hope I never see one again. I find them over powered. Not to mention the half hour needed to go over thier spell list, every time a change is required.

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that they've tried it and they consider it overpowered. It surprises me to the point that I wonder if the person playing it cheated.

Everything is fine except the Mystic Theurge. I'll never allow anyone to have a PrC that gives dual caster progression in two seperate classes, it's too open to abuse even if you don't get as many feats as a straight caster in one of those classes.

If you want to multiclass go back to 2e or expect me to start putting level limits on your character by race arbitrarily or something like that

THIS is more often what I hear about that class.
"I've never given it a fair shake, and I never will."
And that makes sense to me. It's a perfectly valid opinion, too... as is one that has tried it and considers it overpowered... just that second one shocked me.

Mystic Theurge is not allowed in any of my campaigns, never has been, and never will be.

There now. That's pure predjudice, and something easily understood and accepted. ^_^

I am astounded that the Horizon Walker is so high on this list. Many find it a fairly weak PrC, but I've always thought it very flavorful.

I think it's the dimension door ability. Really, really bothers some people.

As am I -- it is also really easy to fix if you don't have planar travel in your game -- just make it a 5 level class and disallow the Planar terrains -- easy peasy

of course someone just said this before me -- mea culpa and DOH!

Or ignore planar travel, and have the characters learn it from experience with outsiders. Heck, not even with outsiders, shifting from experienceing/seeing travel magic. Fiery plane from communing with the campfire. Etcetera. They don't only get these abilities on those planes, so there's no reason for them to GO to those planes to get them.

Or, of course, like some have said, just only allow terrain mastery, no planar terrains.

 

[ARandomGod]

Man, I couldn't get through all the posts on this conversation..

Anyhow. I actually agree with some of the reasons some people give for disliking PrC's altogether. But I see them as a core aspect of 3.X... and that talk as just disliking 3.X's base premises (Feats and PrC's). Since this thread isn't about THAT, I leave that type of thought out.

I think that it's interesting that two of the most hated (but not THE most hated) at the time I'm looking at this poll are two of my current favorites. I really like the Dragon Disciple and the Horizon Walker. I like to combine HW levels with Shadow Dancer levels, to add on to the number of unfavored PrC's I like.

I'm doing DD in an Eberron campaign I'm playing in. It's so lovely (and ironic) combined with my Warforged character. And "giving up" a few HPs for the ability to use wands and therefore be able to repair yourself? That's awesome. Add in some innate true strike and the power attack feat. A lovely tank.

HW/SD combo... the ShadowWalker. That's an interesting archer. Can't be seen, touched. Snipes from a distance. Poor in melee, not that great indoors... but actually has stats similiar to a secondary tank. He's been the most fun since all my Arcane Tricksters.