Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[dnabre]

Yeah like paying for the goddamn scrolls like was set out back when we started this? Anything else is campaign specific. You're assuming you can find a wizard who will let you scribe from his personal spell book. You're assuming you get an equipped cohort who doesn't care you have a familiar and has all the crafting feats you want and will liberally allow himself to be a crafting mule.
You're just trying to avoid paying 2200 GP for a 6th level spell by the character creation rules. You're only allowed treasure dude, not friendly (and high level) wizards lending you their personal spell books for a day.
You could be from a backwater savage land with not even a large town.

Paying for the privilege of copying spells from others books (for common spells) is pretty well laid out in the rules. Finding someone with the spellbook shouldn't be any harder than finding someone with a particular magical item or scroll you want to purchase.

I think at this point, the discussion has gotten long enough and convoluted enough that it's losing much of a point.

Might I suggest, that I'll make a new thread (being an individual undecided about the MT in general, and rather interested in the outcome), make the setup clear (Level X, XP Y, Core books), and both character get presented from scratch (with all gear listed including spell costs, when cohorts/familiar were acquired, when items were crafted). Having seen what you've come up with in the past, you can figure that in. I'd be curious in seeing a better pure caster with and without cohort.

I'll review the cohort in rules in a moment, and offer my opinion on the familiar matter.

 

[Storm Raven]

Yeah like paying for the goddamn scrolls like was set out back when we started this? Anything else is campaign specific.

Except that it is in the core books, which you specified.

You're assuming you can find a wizard who will let you scribe from his personal spell book. You're assuming you get an equipped cohort who doesn't care you have a familiar and has all the crafting feats you want and will liberally allow himself to be a crafting mule.

First off, go back and read the Leadership feat. The fact that you have a familiar doesn't matter one whit after you have recruited the cohort. You then use the rules for advancement of the cohort, which are different.

From the SRD:

The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself.

and then (also from the SRD):

Cohorts earn XP as follows:

The cohort does not count as a party member when determining the party’s XP.

Divide the cohort’s level by the level of the PC with whom he or she is associated (the character with the Leadership feat who attracted the cohort).

Multiply this result by the total XP awarded to the PC and add that number of experience points to the cohort’s total.

If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.

There's nothing in there about "your cohort cannot advance beyond the level allowed by your Leadership score", or anything similar. He just can't advance to be less than two levels lower than you.

The cohort is equipped as an NPC appropriate to his level. This is also in the text of the Leadership feat.

The only crafting feat the cohort has is Craft Magic Arms and Armor, and the only things he crafted were for his own use. That's hardly a "crafting mule".

You're just trying to avoid paying 2200 GP for a 6th level spell by the character creation rules. You're only allowed treasure dude, not friendly (and high level) wizards lending you their personal spell books for a day.

He didn't lend me a spell book, I bought the spell book. Perhaps you would understand this if you bothered to read the rules.

You could be from a backwater savage land with not even a large town.

And I could have the teleport spell. Oh wait, I do. Besides, if that were the case, where are you getting the thousands of gold pieces worth of material components to manufacture your magic items?

I have to work now, and tonight I play D&D. Hopefully you'll actually clear up all your "discrepancies" by tommorow otherwise it's fruitless discusing any further with you because you have no compunctions making things up as we go along as you see fit.

You mean I have no compunctions against using the core rules as written? No, none at all. The fact that you don't understand how the core rules work is not my problem. It's yours. Like I said, everyone who has looked in on this thread and posted has been of the confirmed opinion that your argument doesn't hold water. You should think about that.

And the scorpion is 40x40. Your cloud is a 20 foot radius. Do the math.

That means it takes it longer to get out of the area, because it's bulk remains in the AoE longer, and it gets nailed by the spike stones longer. From the text of the spell solid fog (which acid fog references for movement penalties): "any creature attempting to move through it progresses at a speed of 5 feet". As long as part of it is in the AoE, it is attempting to "move through it", and is thus hampered. Read the rules some time. Figure it out.

 

[dnabre]

No more specifically you've contorted the leadership rules, and specifically avoided trying to reach the Theurge's saves, hp, and punch because you can't afford it with you and your cohort. And it's like pulling teeth to have you make a proper write up - with an example no less.

Having re-read the leadership/cohort rules, it looks correct.

At level 6 (when he gained the leadership feat), his leader score would be 6 + 2 Cha -2 Familiar = 6, allowing him to attract a 4th level character. (Assuming he summoned his familiar at 1st level or any other point before getting leadership). Him selecting amongst though that offer to join him, a cleric is quite reasonable.

As the wizard adventured, going up to 12th level, the cleric would have gain appropriate experience to level up to at least 10th level. As per the cohort advancement rules (DMG pg. 104-105), he would gain levels up to 2 below the PC. Considering the amount of time the wizard spent crafting during that time, it's not unreasonable to assume the cohort picked up Craft Arms and Armor, if he hadn't had it to start with.

Unless you are going to site a specific rule to the contrary, please stop complaining about the poor cohort (being a cohort is a tough enough life as it is ).

 

[Storm Raven]

Here's something else to think about: Urge is heavily dependent upon his metamagic rods. Suppose a greatsword wielding fighter walked up to him and sundered them? It wouldn't be that hard: carried or held items are pretty easy to hit, his would only have AC 11 (attacked by 12th level combat specialist, +12 BAB + 4 Strength + 2 magic + 1 WF - 4 power attack = +15/+10/+5. They have 10 hit points and hardness 10. Most combat jockeys can hand out that much damage without difficulty by 12th level: 2d6 + 6 (Strength) + 2 (Specialization) + 2 (magic) + 8 (power attack) = 26 average (minimum 21). He's going to have a hard time surviving without them.

 

[Kem]

You've liberally abused the crafting system Kem. Earings of intelligence boost and such. I've actually used the plain items. Your character is invalid.
(mithral sheild? and you complained about my monk belt !!!)

Ah you see. That earring uses the headband slot. If you look at any item that has a "different" slot that I use, you will see its normal slot seems to be... empty.

And you are complaining about a Mithril Shield? A Mithril Shield? You have to be kidding.

 

[Kem]

Note clearly that we're trying to prove a single character without leadership is roughly equivalent to a full class and cohort. All the arguments boil off into so much steam if the Mytic Theurge takes leadership as well. It is an inherently one-sided debate that I chose to take on because the MT is really just that good. You can't lose perspective of this.

Its not. And the fact that you think 1 character with weaker spells is better then 2 haracters with BETTER spells, convinces me that argueing with you is pointless.

I think that's abundantly proven. The MT is much much MUCH better than the straight caster. Orders of magnitude.

I can prove you wrong. But since you think Mithril is questionable...

 

[dnabre]

I can prove you wrong. But since you think Mithril is questionable...

 

[Storm Raven]

I can prove you wrong. But since you think Mithril is questionable...

Its getting to the point of ridiculousness with him.

 

[Storm Raven]

No more specifically you've contorted the leadership rules, and specifically avoided trying to reach the Theurge's saves, hp, and punch because you can't afford it with you and your cohort. And it's like pulling teeth to have you make a proper write up - with an example no less.

Let's go down your "advantages" one by one:

Saves: Your saves are slightly better, but they are offset by things like the Wizard's ability to cast contingency and protect himself against the bulk of your spells with something like lesser globe of invulnerability. The cleric has bonuses against magic and poison, as well as saves that are almost as good normally. And he has more hit points.

HP: You have slightly more than the Wizard, but less than the Cleric. Together, they have more than twice as many HP as you.

Punch: You can whip out a couple of damaging spells per day, and even do two per round for a couple rounds. But your save DCs are pathetic, especially with the metamagiced spells you love so much. And the Wizard and Cleric can cast two spells per round long after you have been reduced to just one, and their save DCs and the Wizard's caster level outclass you. And they can keep casting spells long after you have run out.

You also can't turn undead worth a damn (how are you going to deal with the two dread spectres who show up), and are highly vulnerable to sunder attempts against your precious rods (which are pretty obviously important, since you tethered them to your wrists).

 

[DungeonMaster]

Hello brick wall? Are you there? I really enjoy talking to you.
It seems like people have lost track of the discussion. The MT is equivalent to a cohort + wizard. The MT is superior to the lone single-classed character. The MT with leadership categorically dwarfs the wizard + cohort.
Since the MT's metamagic superiority is not recognized (very very foolish) all I do is can them.

THE URGE
Human Evoker3/Clr3/Urge6
Stats: str 8, dex 12 (10+ 2 gloves), con 15 (13+ 2 iounstone), int 20 (15+1 levels+ 4 headband), wis 20 (14 +2 levels +4 periapt), cha 14 (12+2 iounstone)
Hp: 63.5 (8 +2d8+9d4 = 28.5 + 2x12 con)
AC: 21 (10 + 1 dex + 5 wis +1 monk + 4 mage armor)
Touch AC: 18
Saves: +12/+11/+20
( 3/1/3 cleric + 1/1/3 wizard + 2/2/5 MT then + 2 con, +3 dex and weasel + 5 wiz then +3 resistance +1 luck)
Skills: the standard, spellcraft, concentration and so forth, not a big deal will be better than the non-MTs by virtue of the stone of good luck alone
Feats: Scribe scroll (free), Empower spell (1st), Improved initiative (1st), Craft wondrous item (3rd), Leadership (6th), Spell penetration (9th), Greater Spell penetration (12).


Gear: 88000 total
8000 Periapt of wisdom +4 (crafted)
8000 Headband of intellect +4 (crafted)
4500 Cloak of resistance +3 (crafted)
15000 Orange ioun stone (crafted)
6500 Monk's belt (crafted)
4000 Ioun stone +2 Con (crafted)
4000 Ioun stone +2 Cha (crafted)
2000 Gloves of dexterity +2 (crafted)
10000 Luckstone (crafted)
-----------------------------
62 000 GP total

Spells per day:
Arcane:
1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th
4+1/4+1/3+1/2+1/1+1 (+ from specialisation)
2/1/1/1/1/1 from int 20
Total:
7/5/5/4/3
Divine:
1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th
4+1/4+1/3+1/2+1/1+1 (+ from domain)
2/1/1/1/1 from wis 20
7/5/5/4/3

Sample Wizard spell book: (2 per level except for 5+2=7 at level 1)
1st level: Mage armor, Magic missile, True-strike, Burning hands, Charm person, Ventriloquism
2nd level: Scorching ray, Fox's cunning, Mirror image, Gust of wind, Cat's grace
3rd level: Fireball, Lightning bolt, Displacement, Stinking cloud
4th level: Improved invisibility, Black tentacles, Wall of ice, Wall of fire
5th level: Feeblemind, Bigby's interposing hand

Typical spell selection: DCs are (15+ spell level)

Arcane: (opposition schools necromancy and abjuration)
5th: Empowered fireball x2, Feeblemind
4th: Improved invisibility, Evard's black tentacles, Wall of ice, Empowered scorching ray
3rd: Fireball x2, Lightning bolt x1, Empowered magic missile, Stinking cloud
2nd: Scorching ray x3, Mirror image, Gust of wind
1st: Magic missile x4, Mage Armor, True strike, Charm person

Divine:
5th: Teleport, Spell resistance, True Seeing
4th: Dimension door, Death ward, Divine power, Dimensional Anchor
3rd: Fly, Seering light, Dispel magic x2, Protection from energy
2nd: Aid, Silencex2, Resist energy, Hold person
1st: Longstrider, Sanctuary x2, Sheild of faith, Divine favor, Obscuring mist, Command


Domains are Travel and Luck, gets to re-roll 1/day a save, attack roll, etc... and freedom of movement 1/day


Cohort:

THE DEMIURGE
Dwarven Druid 10
Stats: str 10, dex 10 (12 -2 race), con 16 (14 +2 race), int 13, wis 21 (15 +2 levels +4 periapt), cha 8
Hp: 78.5 (8 + 9d8 = 48.5+ 3x10 con)
AC: 16 (10 + 5 wis +1 monk)
Touch AC: 16
Saves: +12/+7/+14
( 7/3/7 druid then + 3 con, +2 feat + 5 wiz then +2 resistance)
Skills: the standard, spellcraft, concentration and so forth
Feats: Improved initiative (1st), Maximize spell (3rd), Lightning reflexes (6th), Craft rod (9th).

25 900 to spend
Gear: 88 000 total
8000 Periapt of wisdom +4 (crafted)
2000 Cloak of resistance +2 (crafted)
6500 Monk's belt (crafted)
+ animal companion(s)
-----------------------------
16500 GP total
Extra cash for ... a metamagic rod of maximize! So give it to the Urge.

Spells per day:
Divine:
1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th
4/4/4/3/2
2/2/1/1/1 from wis 22
6/6/5/4/3


Typical spell selection: DCs are (16+ spell level)
Divine:
5th: Baleful polymorph, Control winds, Animal growth
4th: Flamestrike, Rusting grasp, Spike stones, Giant Vermin
3rd: Call lightningx2, Poison, Wind wall, Greater magic fang
2nd: Barkskin, Delay poison x2, Heat metal, Warp wood,
1st: Pass without trace, Faerie fire, Entangle, Speak with animals, Hide from animals, Detect snares and pits.


ADMIT UTTER AND TOTAL DEFEAT IN THE FACE OF THE URGE AND THE DEMIURGE.


So he brings to the party, well everything he had before - 1 quicken rod and a ring no one cared about. Oh yeah and druidic magic. Oh did I say druidic magic? I think I did.
You have a small handful of 6th level spells. And nothing more. Now's the time to go back and read all my posts again.