Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[Storm Raven]

You have no rods.

I think it salient to point out that your argument doesn't amount to one that "the MT is too powerful", it amounts to "metamagic rods are too powerful". I don't see you advocating banning metamagic rods.

It's also valuable to point out that the MT is at his high water mark here. If you bump everyone up a level (and the Wiz-Clr get there before he does, all other things being equal), the MT lags behind even more.

 

[Ankh-Morpork Guard]

I think it's quite clear (at least to some of us) that the Wizard with Cleric cohort is more generally capable than the Wizard/Cleric/MT. How hard do you think it'd be able to demonstrate this without using the leadership feat?

Being able to add a cleric cohort makes the comparison very easy, but for those that don't use leadership (for whatever reasons), is the MT still balanced against a straight caster?

After many games where I've watched MTs in groups with Clerics/Wizards and such...they aren't more powerful and they don't take the place of the primary caster. What they are, is the best possible support caster you can have in a group. They've got such a wide variety of options that MTs fit the support roll wonderfully, but definitely don't stand up to the effectiveness of a single classed caster.

 

[Storm Raven]

By the way, buying and scribing the extra spells in the wizard's spellbook cost 6,000 gp, leaving the pair with 2,500 gp for sundry equipment. Just so you know.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I think it's quite clear (at least to some of us) that the Wizard with Cleric cohort is more generally capable than the Wizard/Cleric/MT. How hard do you think it'd be able to demonstrate this without using the leadership feat?

Note clearly that we're trying to prove a single character without leadership is roughly equivalent to a full class and cohort. All the arguments boil off into so much steam if the Mytic Theurge takes leadership as well. It is an inherently one-sided debate that I chose to take on because the MT is really just that good. You can't lose perspective of this.

Being able to add a cleric cohort makes the comparison very easy, but for those that don't use leadership (for whatever reasons), is the MT still balanced against a straight caster?

I think that's abundantly proven. The MT is much much MUCH better than the straight caster. Orders of magnitude.

 

[DungeonMaster]

By the way, buying and scribing the extra spells in the wizard's spellbook cost 6,000 gp, leaving the pair with 2,500 gp for sundry equipment. Just so you know.

I'm getting fed up of trying to make you people post things that are "defacto" because I did. You know, I go to the trouble and time to post things all in one place, and correct them all and you're grudgeingly being forced to do the same.
#1 it's not fun
#2 it doesn't look well on you
Stop handwaiving.
You bought 3 6th level spells at 1650 GP each and 600 GP per page. Just those are 6750 GP.

 

[Storm Raven]

Note clearly that we're trying to prove a single character without leadership is roughly equivalent to a full class and cohort. All the arguments boil off into so much steam if the Mytic Theurge takes leadership as well. It is an inherently one-sided debate that I chose to take on because the MT is really just that good. You can't lose perspective of this.

Then the MT loses your precious "single equipment roster" value. Plus, its costly for the MT, since he has comparatively so few feats. The Wiz can afford to do it, he has bonus feats to spend as well.

I think that's abundantly proven. The MT is much much MUCH better than the straight caster. Orders of magnitude.

You really are humorous.

 

[dnabre]

I'm getting fed up of trying to make you people post things that are "defacto" because I did. You know, I go to the trouble and time to post things all in one place, and correct them all and you're grudgeingly being forced to do the same.
#1 it's not fun
#2 it doesn't look well on you
Stop handwaiving.
You bought 3 6th level spells at 1650 GP each and 600 GP per page. Just those are 6750 GP.

It would have cost him 4500 gp to purchase the spells and copy them into his book (assuming he found somebody with the spell in their book, and didn't scribe them from scrolls). I agree it would have been nice for him to tally them up, but he left quite a bit of gold, and didn't acquire very many spells.

 

[Storm Raven]

I'm getting fed up of trying to make you people post things that are "defacto" because I did. You know, I go to the trouble and time to post things all in one place, and correct them all and you're grudgeingly being forced to do the same.

Because, at this point, it doesn't matter. Urge is hopelessly outclassed.

#1 it's not fun

I'm not interested in your "fun". You made the challenge. It has been abundantly proven that your argument has lost. All you are doing now is whining.

#2 it doesn't look well on you

It doesn't seem to bother anyone else. In point of fact, every other person who has looked in on this thread and posted since the two opposing positions have been put up have (a) agreed with me, and (b) said that the spell selection doesn't really matter.

And you have continued to rant like someone took your candy. Who "doesn't look well here"?

Stop handwaiving.
You bought 3 6th level spells at 1650 GP each and 600 GP per page. Just those are 6750 GP.

I bought them via a spell book, which is much cheaper, and copied them into it.

2 2nd level spells: scrolls @ 150 gp each, 200 gp to scribe = 700 gp
1 3rd level spell: book @ 300 gp, 300 gp to scribe = 600 gp
1 5th level spell: book @ 500 gp, 500 gp to scribe = 1,000 gp
3 6th level spells: book @ 600 gp each, 600 gp to scribe = 3,600 gp

The 6th level spells cost 600 gp each (per the rules for buying and selling spell books), and 600 gp per page, or 3,600 gp. Total expense for all additional spells = 5,900 gp. I could have scribed more spells, but didn't feel the need. I also shorted myself one 1st level spell in my spell book, make it reduce person.

Now stop whining and gnashing your teeth. It makes you look bad.

 

[dnabre]

Note clearly that we're trying to prove a single character without leadership is roughly equivalent to a full class and cohort. All the arguments boil off into so much steam if the Mytic Theurge takes leadership as well. It is an inherently one-sided debate that I chose to take on because the MT is really just that good. You can't lose perspective of this.

Full caster + cohort easily does more than the MT. The only room to doubt that is dealing with having spread the resources between caster and cohort.

Without the cohort, it's much harder. You can't as easily say well the full caster has more spells per day for example. Even without the cohort, the better character in terms of a single combat is clearly the full caster, but I hardly think that's a very important metric in a normal campaign. The raw number of spells and diverse abilities makes the MT very useful to a party. I'm not sure if it can be compared very easily.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I don't need rods. Get that through your head. You need the quicken rod because otherwise you can't cast two spells in a round without a significant spell level hit. I don't. I can cast two spells in a round 28 rounds in a row.

You do need rods or you don't pack the same offensive or defensive punch. Pure and simple. You can cast a wizard spell and a cleric spell but you can't cast both a wizard spell and a wizard spell or a cleric spell and a cleric spell. Get it?

I can use acid fog for that, and stop him cold (no save). The cohort casts spike stones, keeping the scopion in place even longer, while it gets pounded on, suffers damage, likely ends up with slowed movement, and generally gets chewed up.

Really? It's um, going to get out of that in 1 round. Better think fast.

How useful are you in the 6th round, when the only thing you are doing is casting fly and getting away? How much is that helping your party? You are basically saying to the rest of your party "I'm saving myself boys, I hope he doesn't kill you before next round".

Um dude, I have more than enough spells to go beyond 6 rounds.

I have more than matched your character's power. It is amusing that you can't figure this out.

No more specifically you've contorted the leadership rules, and specifically avoided trying to reach the Theurge's saves, hp, and punch because you can't afford it with you and your cohort. And it's like pulling teeth to have you make a proper write up - with an example no less.