Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[Storm Raven]

Sure. I agree. If it were an arena, he'd be dead. Which is also fairly easy to agree upon.

Only if you win intiative, and then its not a sure thing for you. If you lose initiative (and you probably will) you lose.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Only if you win intiative, and then its not a sure thing for you. If you lose initiative (and you probably will) you lose.

Look dude, here's the plan, you complete your write up and we can run one ok? After your first horrible defeat then we can run another? Ok? It's not that hard to run these things online.

 

[Storm Raven]

Not when you can re-roll. I can re-roll initiative. +3 (his dex is lower) vs re-rolling means he loses.

You only get to reroll once per day. You sure like to trot that out for every roll, don't you? You can reroll your initiative. You can reroll your saves. You can reroll your attacks. And so on. I think you are having a hard time with the concept of once

And you have to beat both the wizard and his cohort to go first. Your odds are much lower.

And I agree. In an arena, initiative is prime mover. And weren't you of the opinion that contingency takes effect after the triggering event?

It doesn't matter, if triggered after your first fireball, the rest of your magic is ineffective until you start using higher level spells.

Evard's black + silence, feeblemind, or going nuclear.

How many spells per round are you going to be casting now?

There's no hope.

For you? Nope. You lose intiative, and you die. And you are likely to lose.

If the metamagic rods are "useless" and "not factored" into the equation that easily frees up 3 feats for me too. Really the consolidated defenses of the Theurge means he will win, regardless.

They aren't useless. They are just highly specialized, and thus, of limited use over the long haul. You can use them 3 times per day, the most important use being to cast 2 spells a round a couple times per day. The wizard + cohort can do it 28 times per day, and then the wizard can cast 5 more spells. You just can't seem to get that simple and incontrovertible fact.

Your "consolidated defenses" add up to little, since you dropped abjuration, and thus lost most of the wizard defenses.

Anyhow, it's late here and if there isn't an actual spell list and spell book by tommorow then I will consider it conceeding defeat in the argument.

You lost. You just don't know it.

 

[Storm Raven]

Look dude, here's the plan, you complete your write up and we can run one ok? After your first horrible defeat then we can run another? Ok? It's not that hard to run these things online.

Silly person. Do you really think a head to head battle is how to measure a character? It's not the first fight that's critical. Its how you stand up to three, or four, or five. By the time your character gets through his first combat, he's pretty much done for the day. How useful does that really make you?

 

[Kem]

Not when you can re-roll. I can re-roll initiative. +3 (his dex is lower) vs re-rolling means he loses.

With 2 Cavets.

First, you have to decide to reroll BEFORE you know what your initiative roll means.
Second, You MUST accept the reroll.

Also, His Init Mod is +5, he has Improved Init.

I'll post a character also. But keep in mind, Its a character ment to occupy the Wizard's Spot, spell list wise. She's going to be so much fun to make

 

[Kem]

Here's one for you.

Chiyochan, The Pink Pigtailed Gnome Of Knowing Everything There Is To Know.
Tiny Gnome Diviner, Opposition Enchantment 12
Str: 4 (8 -2 Gnome, -2 Size)
Dex: 14 (12 +2 Size)
Con: 15
Int: 24 (15+3 Levels +6 Earring)
Wis: 10
Cha: 14

Ranged Touch Attack: +10
AC: 16 Touch, 24 Flatfooted, 26 Normal (+2 Dex, +2 Size, +4 Shield +6 Armor, +2 Deflection)
HP: 55.5
Saves: Fort: +10, Refl: +10, Will: +12 (4/4/8 +3 Resist, +2/2/0 Abil Mods)
Feats: Scribe Scroll, Craft Wonderous Item, Leadership, Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Maximize Spell, Craft Rod, Craft Staff
Skills: Approx 5 Maxxed, Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcanae, Craft Armor, 1 unpicked. (I'd Pick Craft Calligraphy and have her use regular size materials)

Equipment: (88k)
Earring of Intellect +6 (18000gp crafted)
Vest of Saves +4 (8000gp crafted)
Light Mithril Shield of Protection +4 (4583gp crafted)
Bracelet of Armor +6 (18,000 crafted)
Ring of Protection +2 (8000)
Maximized Lesser Spells Stick (8000 Crafted)
Staff of Quickened True Strike (16875 crafted)
Silent Lesser Spells Stick (1500 Crafted)
Empowered Lesser Spells Stick (4500)

291gp left over.

Spells:
Base: 4/4/4/4/3/3/2
Spec: 0/1/1/1/1/1/1
Int : 0/2/2/2/1/1/1
Tota: 4/7/7/7/5/5/4

DC: 17 + Spell Level (18 for illusions)
Spellbook:
6th: Contingency, True Seeing, Greater Dispelling, Flesh to Stone
5th: Permanency, Teleport, Telepathic Bond, Cloudkill
4th: Phantasmal Killer, Scrying, Greater Invisibility, Enervation
3rd: Tongues, Haste, Ray of Exhaustion, Non-Detection
2nd: Fox's Cunning, Mirror Image, See Invisibility, Scorching Ray
1st: Mage Armor, True Strike, Reduce Person, Magic Missile, Comprehend Languages, Ray of Enfeeblement

Sample Spell List:
6th: (4/4)True Seeing, Greater Dispelling, Flesh to Stone, Empowered Enervation
5th: (5/5)Telepathic Bond, Teleport, Cloudkill, Max Scorching Rayx2
4th: (5/5)Scrying, Phantasmal Killer, Enervation, Greater Invisibility, Empowered Scorching Ray
3rd: (7/7)Hastex3, Ray of Exhaustionx2, Non-Detection, Tongues
2nd: (7/7)Mirror Image, Scorching Rayx3, See Invisibilityx2
1st: (7/7)True Strike, Cmprehend Languages, Magic Missilex2, Ray of Enfeeblementx3
Reduce Person is Permanent on Chiyo.

When Chiyo hit level 12, an NPC who Chiyo knew as Sakaki's church bought armor from Chiyo.
Sakaki, The Tall Cleric
Human Cleric 10 of Luck and Travel
Str: 13
Dex: 12
Con: 18
Int: 10
Wis: 21
Cha: 8

Attack: +7/+2 (+1 Str, +1 Dex)
AC: 11/22/23 T/F/N
HP: 68.5
Saves: +11/+6/+12
Feats: Craft Arms/Armor, Craft Wonderous Item, Tower Shield Profiency, 2 Unpicked
Skills: Concentration, Religion, Spellcraft

Equipment: (16k)
Full Plate of Coolness +2 (2550 crafted)
Masterwork Mace +1 (1300 crafted)
Shield of Coolness +2 (2055 crafted)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (2000 crafted)
Necklace of Wisdom +4 (8000 crafted)

Spells:

Your Cleric List. Plus Flame Strike and Spell Immunity. Why? Cause now you can shut up about your cleric spells.

Thats why you don't compare to a Wizard/Cleric Cohort Pair.

-------------------------------------------

More then 5 times a Day I can cast 3 spells a round.
My Touch Attack Bonus is +10, +30 with true strike which I can use almost at will.
My Empowered Enervation deals 1-6 negative levels and hits. Thats a big hit on saves, attack rolls, and 1-6 of the highest level spells gone.
My Phantasmal Killer has a Save DC of 22. Rogues die.
Max Emp Sorching Ray deals (24+2d6)x3 with the first one hitting for 31 no save, the others needing to make a touch attack.

Flesh to Stone has a save DC of 23. That Storm Giant fails that save 25% of the time. Only it kills him it doesn't deal 1/4 to 1/2 his HP in damage. With an Emp Enervation the round before I can bring his chance to hit me down an average of 3.5 points, making it so that he hits me on a 16 with his bow. And my cohort on a 13. This would allow my party to easily kill the poor giant. As if he has his weapon out, his ATK just dropped by that 3.5 to hit them when the party closes. It Also drops his save by 3.5 making him fail against flesh to stone 40-45% of the time.

I am more useful over the long run, I have more control over my damage, and there is not a cleric spell I don't have access to that you have.

My Hp are irrelivant, as being able to cast an extra spell per round OVER you allows me to be healed during combat while still casting 2 spells.

My AC is higher then yours. My Saves are average for my level (Myth does win on will save typically, watch out for DMs that like fractional Saves), and between two people we outcast the bajeezus out of you.

If I really want, I can just make a wizard almost exactly like you, only 3 levels higher in just wizard, and take a cohort who is better at casting clerical spells then YOU ARE. You have to take an IOUN STONE to make her.

Don't even bother trying to say that a Myth is better then a Wizard/Cleric Cohort Pair when the wizard is the same level as you.

 

[Storm Raven]

The problem overall is that the question isn't "who could win in a head to head battle", because that almost always goes to the guy who wins initiative in a high level spell caster duel, and these match ups are no exception. The question is "who can handle threats to the party better".

The question is "how do you deal with a trio of bone devils", and then "followed by a pair of dread wraiths", and then "followed by an adult blue dragon", and then "followed by a 12 headed pyrohydra".

The problem with Urge, is that he doesn't have the staying power to keep going through all these challenges. He most likely blows most of his capabilities on the bone devils, and then has to retreat.

And all the harping on AC is amusing. An AC of 22, which Urge is trumpeting proudly, is like saying "hit me again and again" at 12th level. A straight up 12th level fighter of fairly modest capabilities (say +12 BAB, +4 Strength bonus, +1 WF, +3 weapon) hits that AC on a 2. He hits with his second attack on a 7, and his third on a 12. If he has a level or two of barbarian, and has a belt of giant strength +4, when he's raging those numbers go to 2/3/8. No wizard based character is going to have anything resembling a worthwhile AC, ever.

The comparison works out like this, assuming both pairs are casting spells in combat against CR appropriate foes:

Round 1:

Urge: 2 5th level spells
Wiz-Clr: 1 6th level spell, 1 5th level spell

Round 2:

Urge: 2 5th level spells
Wiz-Clr: 1 6th level spell, 1 5th level spell

Round 3:

Urge: 2 5th level spells
Wiz-Clr: 1 6th level spell, 1 5th level spell

Round 4:

Urge: 1 4th level spell
Wiz-Clr: 1 6th level spell, 1 5th level spell

Round 5:

Urge: 1 4th level spell
Wiz-Clr: 1 5th level spell, 1 4th level spell

From the 4th round of combat in a day, at no point does Urge catch up. After the first three rounds of daily combat, the Wiz-Clr always have a spell slot of equal level to the Urge's available, and another one to boot. By the 12th daily round of combat, Urge is down to 1 3rd level spell per round, while Wiz-Clr are casting 1 4th and 1 3rd each round. We could even assume that the maximize rod counts to "raise" his spell slot levels, and give Urge one 8th level slot in each of the first three rounds of combat (the quicken rod doesn't count for that, since it just allows him to match casting two spells in a round, which doesn't gain him any ground), but he still falls quickly and woefully behind as the day's endeavors wear on.

 

[dnabre]

"Mine more powerful than yours"
"Not, mine is"
etc,etc

Storm Raven, if you'd be so kind to write up a spell list. I don't think it matters for the discussion, but you ask him to write it all up, it'd be proper to do the same.

Once that is done, why don't you start a new thread with a poll. Get the community to decide which is a more useful character to an adventuring party.

Personally, I've never been able to decide whether MT is too powerful or not. (I've been dying to play one in a campaign to find out). I think the wizards with cohorts are clearly more powerful. I'd think they'd still be more powerful, if they took a level of cleric to get the luck domain, just to remove that variable from the comparison. It doesn't, help me decide on the MT though. It just makes the Leadership feat looks extremely powerful.

 

[Psion]

Once that is done, why don't you start a new thread with a poll. Get the community to decide which is a more useful character to an adventuring party.

Personally, I've never been able to decide whether MT is too powerful or not.

A poll isn't going to tell you if a given class (spell, feat, etc.) is too strong for YOUR game.

 

[Storm Raven]

"Mine more powerful than yours"
"Not, mine is"
etc,etc

Storm Raven, if you'd be so kind to write up a spell list. I don't think it matters for the discussion, but you ask him to write it all up, it'd be proper to do the same.

Actually, I didn't, He posed the idea, but here goes:

1st: Enlarge Person, Grease, Identify, Magic Missile, Shield, True Strike
2nd: Cats' Grace, Fox's Cunning, Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility
3rd: Blink, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Slow
4th: Dimension Door, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Mass Enlarge Person, Polymorph
5th: Baleful Polymorph, Cone of Cold, Feeblemind, Telekenisis, Teleport
6th: Antimagic Field, Acid Fog, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone, Greater Dispel Magic.

Typical Memorization:


Wizard
1st (7): Magic Missile x3, Reduce Person, Shield x2, True Strike
2nd (7): Glitterdust x2, Pyrotechnics x2, Scorching Ray x2, See Invisibility
3rd (6): Blink, Dispel Magic, Fireball x2, Lightning Bolt, Slow
4th (5): Dimension Door x2, Mass Enlarge Person, Polymorph x2
5th (5): Cone of Cold, Baleful Polymorph x2, Feeblemind, Teleport
6th (4): Acid Fog, Chain Lightning, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone

A couple days ago, he cast Contingency, linking it to Lesser Globe of Invulnerability with the trigger "whenever I am affected by hostile magic"

Cleric
1st (7): Bane, Bless x2, Entropic Shield, Magic Weapon, Obscuring Mist, Sanctuary (D)
2nd (7): Align Weapon, Hold Person, Lesser Restoration, Shield Other (D), Silence, Sound Burst, Spiritual Weapon
3rd (5): Blindness/Deafness, Dispel Magic, Prayer, Protection from Energy (D), Searing Light
4th (5): Dimensional Anchor, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Poison, Spike Stones (D)
5th (4): Flame Strike, Righteous Might, Slay Living, Spell Resistance (D)

I didn't optimize the spell selections to deal with the "arena duel" silliness that DungeonMaster seems to think is so important, but to contribute to the success of a party over the course of a day's adventuring. of course, there are several tactics that coul be used with this spell array to seriously ruin Urge's day, but that's not the point.

Personally, I've never been able to decide whether MT is too powerful or not. (I've been dying to play one in a campaign to find out). I think the wizards with cohorts are clearly more powerful. I'd think they'd still be more powerful, if they took a level of cleric to get the luck domain, just to remove that variable from the comparison. It doesn't, help me decide on the MT though. It just makes the Leadership feat looks extremely powerful.

Leadership can be powerful, but few people have said "ban it". On the other hand, lots of people say that the comparatively weak MT class should be banned. The problem with the MT is that it is slow. Until he hit 12th level, and could craft his metamagic rods, Urge was really slow from round to round when casting spells (one per round, except the rare 1st level quickened spell). Basically, this level (12th) is the high point of Urge's existence, and the Wiz-Clr combination still outdoes him pretty handily.