Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[Kem]

Not in my SRD:

Its in the DMG. Thats why you don't have it.

Make it 10 of them then, you know what I mean.

No not really. You want to attract followers for the purpose of killing them for their equipment. DMs tend to use that to work against the players. You know the whole "You know, I heard he kills his followers if they have something he wants" issue.

Leadership is a Role-Play feat that requires DM intervention in terms of use, hence it being in the DMG and not the PHB.

At 10 of them thats a -20 on your leadership score. Your Myth only has a score of 12. A Paladin MIGHT have a leadership score of 16-18. And a Paladin wouldn't do that.

Dude here wants to use the cohort as some sort of item creation mule.

No, only the the Cohort THEMSELF. So the COHORT, makes the COHORTS own stuff.

And I think I've cleared up all mistakes.

Are your gloves no longer crafted?

 

[Storm Raven]

And exactly how many spells is that? 2 more hmm? Or less?

Actually, it's more, because their casting stat bonuses are higher than yours, and the wizard has a higher caster level. To wit:

12th level Wizard (Transmuter, Necromancy and Illusion prohibited) (starting experience 72,680 to mimic your crafting antics, final experience 66,240), Human, Str 8, Int 22 (15 + 3 level bonuses + 4 headband), Wis 13 Dex 12 (10 + 2 gloves) Con 14 (12 + 2 amulet), Cha 14
Feats: Scribe Scroll (Free), Improved Initiative (1st), Spell Focus (Transmutation) (1st), Greater Spell Focus (Transmutation) (3rd), Craft Wondrous Item (5th level bonus feat), Leadership (6th), Lightning Reflexes (9th), Craft Rod (10th level bonus feat), Forge Ring (12th), Alertness (from familiar)
Skills: Better than Urge, primarily because his Intelligence bonus is higher.
AC 18 (10 + 5 robe, +2 ring, +1 Dex), BAB +6/+1, Fort +12 (+4 base +2 Con +4 robe, +2 familiar), Reflex +11 (+4 base, +1 Dex, +4 robe, +2 feat), Will +13 (+8 base, +1 Wis, +4 robe), SR 18 (robe), HP 55.5 (average), Init +5 (+1 Dex, +4 feat)
12th level caster, 14th for overcoming spell resistance, save DC 16 + spell level, 18 + spell level for transmutation spells) 0th: 4+1, 1st: 6+1, 2nd: 6+1, 3rd: 5+1, 4th: 4+1, 5th: 4+1, 6th: 3+1
Familiar (Rat): normal rat abilities and 22 hp, +6 natural armor, Int 11, improved evasion, share spells, emapthic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master, speak with other rats, spell resistance 17, Fort +4, Reflex +6, Will +9, +8 on attacks.

Equipment:
Robe of Archmagi (crafted) 37,500 gp
Headband of Intellect +4 (crafted) 8,000 gp
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (crafted) 2,000 gp
Amulet of Health +2 (crafted) 2,000 gp
Ring of Protection +2 (crafted) 4,000 gp

10th level Cleric Cohort (recruited at 4th level with 6,000 xp, since then has earned 57,600 x 0.75 = 43,200 xp for a total of 49,200 xp, final experience 48,880), Dwarf, Str 13, Int 8, Wis 22 (15 + 3 level bonus +4 periapt), Dex 12 (10 + 2 gloves), Con 16 (14 + 2 racial bonus), Cha 10 (12 - 2 racial penalty)
Feats: Improved Initiative (1st), Lightning Reflexes (3rd), Craft Magic Arms and Armor (6th), Combat Casting (9th)
Skills: Minimal due to Intelligence penalty, but at least 5 ranks of Knowledge: Religion.
AC 27 (10 + 10 armor, + 4 shield, + 2 ring, + 1 Dex), 31 against giants, BAB +7/+2, Fort +14 (+7 base +3 Con +4 cloak), Reflex +10 (+3 base, +1 Dex, +4 cloak, +2 feat), Will +17 (+7 base, +6 Wis, +4 cloak), HP 78.5 (average), Init +5 (+1 Dex, +4 feat), +2 bonus to saves against spells and spell-like effects, +2 bonus to saves against poison, stonecunning, stability, +2 skill bonus to Appraise and Craft checks related to stone or metal, +1 attack bonus against goblinoids and orcs, Earth domain, Protection domain, turn undead 3x/day at 10th level ability, +2 bonus to turn roll.
10th level caster, save DC 16 + spell level 0th: 6, 1st: 6+1, 2nd: 6+1, 3rd: 4+1, 4th: 4+1, 5th: 3+1

Equipment:
+2 Full Plate (masterwork plate when recruited, enhanced by crafting) 2,000 gp
+2 heavy steel shield (masterwork shield when recruited, ehanced by crafting) 2,000 gp
masterwork morningstar (when recruited)
Cloak of Resistance +4 (crafted) 8,000
Periapt of Wisdom +4 (crafted) 8,000 gp
Ring of Protection +2 (crafted) 4,000 gp
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (crafted) 2,000 gp

I've got 8,500 left to put into my spellbook and sundry gear, so I can have a pretty full spell book. At this point, running through the spell book and spell selections would likely be a waste of time, since the Wizard/Cohort can match you spell for spell (no metamagiced spells, but we've got higher level spells to cast, so the save DCs will be higher), plus several more spells, and higher level ones to boot. The pair is also more durable, able to cast two spells per round until they run out of spells, and has a wider selection of available spells (since the Wizard's spell book is much larger than yours). They are also both closer to leveling up than you.

Your spells are going to have a hard time doing much damage, and you are likely to go second in the round, since you are comparatively slow to react. But a head to head match up is silly, the real key is that this pair would be much more valuable to a party of other adventurers than Urge.

 

[Storm Raven]

Stuck "trying to do everything?" Urge does do everything. And we can have 2 Urges, just like him rather than a wizard and cleric in our party.

And your party would suffer for it.

A large number maybe 2 or 3 less than the wizard + cohort? And no I tend to think 60+ damage is pretty good, especially when you save for massive damage each time.
I personally wouldn't go for the quicken rod and would just get 2 more maximize rods but this is for "shock and awe".

A lot fewer. Let's look at how many more spells the wizard + cohort have than Urge:

Arcane: 1st: 0, 2nd: 2, 3rd: 1, 4th: 1, 5th: 1, 6th 4
Divine: 1st: 0, 2nd: 2, 3rd: 0, 4th: 1, 5th: 1

So, for review, the wizard + cohort have 4 more 2nd level spells, 1 more 3rd level spell, 2 more 4th level spells, 2 more 5th level spells, and 4 more 6th level spells. That's a little more than "2 or 3 less". That's 13 fewer spells, or, to put things into better perspective, 53 spell levels worth of spells. Your problem is that you don't look at what your character gives up when he becomes "less than uber".

No I didn't know that, in fact it's not at all true. That wider variety had better include some defensive magic or he's pretty dead. I have all my defensive magic from my clerical side.

Your save DCs on your fireballs are 18, and you first have to overcome spell resistance to get through (and your caster check isn't that great). The wizard saves on a 7, the cleric saves on a 6. You were saying the saves were "unlikely"? In any event, the wizard probably, since he can cast contingency has one that triggers something like a lesser globe of invulnerability whenever he is subjected to hostile magic.

Meanwile the Wizard (who probably gets the initiative on you, spell casters are all about initiative) hits you with something like a flesh to stone, save DC 24, you save on a 12 or the combat is done. You fail, you can reroll, but that burns your domain ability for the day. The cleric can then hit you with flame strike save DC 21, in which case you suffer 5d6 or 10d6 damage or casts righteous might and moves up towards you, to whack you with an AoO if you try to cast a spell. They could take any number of other options, most of which would really hamper your day due to the wizard's higher level spells, and the higher save DCs both of them have.

Hmm... 3.5 disintegrate, the weak version right? Touch AC of 18, I can take 5d6 on the save in stride, because I get to re-roll remember? Luck domain granted power and all? Try feeblemind wisdom-less wizard.

His Will save is +12, and he has has SR 18. Your caster level check is +12 (you fail a little less than a third of the time), and your save DC is 20 (he saves more than 40% of the time). Even if you get through, you have to deal with the cohort who will probably finish you off before you can act again. I'm not really quaking here.

And the wizard's disintegrate DC would be 24. His touch attack roll bonus is +8, so he hits about half the time. You fail your save more than half the time. If he hits, prepare to suck up 24d6 damage.

What exactly is a "bad" set of spells? I have hold persons, stinking clouds, walls of ice, fireballs, lightning bolts, searing light, charms, I can target all types of saving throws but I aim primarily for reflex, because it's the worst for the majority of things.

It is a limited set of spells, based on your very weak spell book.

He does, in hitpoints, but at any point of the day I can strap on armor and well, fight pretty damn good with divine power and righteous might if that's the nature of the battle.

Armor that you haven't paid for out of your equipment list.

This MT has a defensive spell-casting focus, it's not like he can't change in a minute. And he can throw arcane buffs up too.

Your arcane buffs are pretty limited: you gave up abjuration remember?

The MT does not "suck". It is uber.

You have an odd definition of "uber", one that apparently means "not as good as standard classes at things". In point of fact, compared to the alternatives, the MT pretty much sucks.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Your dex is benefiting from mysterious extra level bonus. It should start at 10 to, not 11, lowering your saves and AC.
Your familiar is granting you bonus to saves and the alertness feat somehow.
You have obviously forgotten spell penetration feats at some level or another because you're only at CL = 14 vs SR by my count.
Your cohort does not have a cloak.
You have the same intelligence bonus as the Urge until 12th level, be happy with your 1 skill point. Sadly the urge has a luckstone, so you have worse everything than him.
You have no metamagic rods.
You still need to show spells.

In fact the only thing you have over the Mystic theurge is 4 6th level spells per day. And that's assuming the rods don't count. If you factor the rods then you have less than he does - with both you and your cohort.

 

[Storm Raven]

Your dex is benefiting from mysterious extra level bonus. It should start at 10 to, not 11, lowering your saves and AC.

Yep.

Your familiar is granting you bonus to saves and the alertness feat somehow.

Look up familiars.

You have obviously forgotten spell penetration feats at some level or another because you're only at CL = 14 vs SR by my count.

I had it on one version, it drifted in to this one. Fixed.

Your cohort does not have a cloak.

Fixed.

You have the same intelligence bonus as the Urge until 12th level, be happy with your 1 skill point. Sadly the urge has a luckstone, so you have worse everything than him.

Except that the Urge has lower stat modifiers, so he's out of luck.

You have no metamagic rods.

So? I don't need them.

You still need to show spells.

Because? I can match you spell for spell, and more. That's the point.

In fact the only thing you have over the Mystic theurge is 4 6th level spells per day. And that's assuming the rods don't count. If you factor the rods then you have less than he does - with both you and your cohort.

The rods somehow give you extra spells per day? Of course, I also have 4 2nd level spells, 1 3rd level spell, 2 4th level spells, and 2 5th level spells more than you. A total of 53 spell levels worth of spells. And I can cast two per round all day. Can you?

Oh, and my save DCs are higher. And my caster level is higher. And my spell penetration is better. And I can effectively turn undead, and you can't. You just don't understand how outclassed Urge truly is.

 

[DungeonMaster]

*laugh* Your Save DC is 18. Thats it. You are doing 30+ not 60+ to most targets.
Even YOUR Reflex save makes that on a 6. A SIX.

I guess that says a lot for disintegrate doesn't it?
The Urge is also remarkable at saving.
Storm giants are CR 13 and have +8. And they're not the worst at saves in the game either.

Glad you got a couple good spells. While you are using these though, the wizard is still on level 5 spells. Good Game. Not to mention the wizard still has those spells. You know for AFTER duplicating your Emp/Max Fireballs.

Well he clearly hasn't been able to duplicate my fireballs. Sadly.

Playtest him then. I can tell for a fact, that you would never think of playtesting it. And I have never heard of anyone saying that from playtesting they are overpowered. Only in made up situations like arenas, and theoretical discussions such as this.

Well it passes the theory test then. I've heard from numerous people they are overpowered.

 

[Storm Raven]

I guess that says a lot for disintegrate doesn't it?
The Urge is also remarkable at saving.
Storm giants are CR 13 and have +8. And they're not the worst at saves in the game either.

They also have 199 hit points. They laugh at the piddly damage you deal out.

Well he clearly hasn't been able to duplicate my fireballs. Sadly.

Why bother? Intentionally hamper my save DCs to accomplish an effect I could just get by using actual 5th and 6th level spells? Metamagic, when it increases the spell level slot, is a sucker's bet.

Well it passes the theory test then. I've heard from numerous people they are overpowered.

Just because many people believe something doesn't make it true. In this case, the "many people" are wrong. Your "uber" MT is behind in save DCs, spell slots, caster level, and just about everything else that makes for a valuable caster in a party.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Look up familiars.

Ah, I guess I should add that to my list too.

Because? I can match you spell for spell, and more. That's the point.

No you can't. You don't have the same opposition schools. You need to write up your spells dude.

The rods somehow give you extra spells per day? Of course, I also have 4 2nd level spells, 1 3rd level spell, 2 4th level spells, and 2 5th level spells more than you. A total of 53 spell levels worth of spells. And I can cast two per round all day. Can you?

If I want to be moronic and trade away the rods I can. I can buy with my cash pearls of power - is that what you respect? Heck I can even buy better stat enhancing items for their price.
The urge also has 1 less int then you and is better or equal in every stat AND has a luckstone. You lose in skills, regardless. Write them up for fun.
You've basically not matched either hp, AC, saves or raw firepower.
You're out-classed go back to the drawing board.

 

[Kem]

I guess that says a lot for disintegrate doesn't it?
The Urge is also remarkable at saving.
Storm giants are CR 13 and have +8. And they're not the worst at saves in the game either.

With a truck load of HP, and a fort save thats a bit higher then +8, I don't think they care about Massive Damage saves or HP damage.

That same Storm Giant hits you on a 5 for 3d6+14 damage. Then on a 10 for the same, then on a 15 for the same.

OR

Chain Lightning for 20d6, although you are likely to only take 10d6 because of the save.

Well he clearly hasn't been able to duplicate my fireballs. Sadly.

You can't duplicate Contingency. He could if he wanted to, you don't have the option.

Well it passes the theory test then. I've heard from numerous people they are overpowered.

No, it doesn't pass the theory test. Just because you think its overpowered doesn't make it so. I have a DM that thinks Improved Trip is overpowered by how it looks. That doesn't mean it IS overpowered.

 

[Storm Raven]

Ah, I thought it was a raven.

It's a rat.

No you can't. You don't have the same opposition schools. You need to write up your spells dude.

Yeah, I pretty much can. You can cast 5 3rd level wizard spells, I can cast 6. You can cast 4 4th level wizard spells, I can cast 5. You can cast 3 5th level wizard spells, I can cast 4. Every time you use a spell slot, I can match it with an equal spell. And I haven't added in the fact that the cleric cohort can cast more spells than you as well.

You can cast two spells per round for three rounds out of the day. I can do it 28 rounds per day (not counting cantrips and orisons).

If I want to be moronic and trade away the rods I can. I can buy with my cash pearls of power - is that what you respect? Heck I can even buy better stat enhancing items for their price.

No, I just don't need them to cast two spells per round. Having two casters does that. You use the rods to patch a weakness, a weakness my character doesn't have. So I don't need them.

You've basically not matched either hp, AC, saves or raw firepower.

I have more combined hit points than you by a huge margin. My wizard has 55.5, the cleric has 78.5. Urge only has 52.5. My wizard by himself has more hit points than you.

The wizard has an AC only a few points less than yours, while the cleric has an AC a fair amount higher. Being able to cast shield (since he can use abjurations) makes up the difference (much of your AC comes from a first level spell, so mine can counter). You lose most of your AC when flat-footed too (it drops to 14, touch AC 10, I hope you aren't targeted with a touch spell before you can act).

Saves? I have SR, you don't. My save totals are almost as high as yours in every category, even for the cohort (who gets save bonuses against things like spells, and has enough hit points to take more punishment to begin with). I think you need to actually read what has been written.

And raw firepower? I have 6th level spells. I can blast things far better than you ever could hope to. My save DCs are far higher than yours, since you keep insisting on using metamagiced 3rd level spells. While you monkey about with fireballs, I'll be using things like chain lightning, cone of cold, and cloudkill, you know, higher level spells.

I have a higher caster level. My base save DCs are higher. My spell penetration is better.

So, you were saying?

You're out-classed go back to the drawing board.

I think you have that backwards.