Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[DungeonMaster]

If you had 2 empowered Fireballs Up.

Done. As said, it's only a sample spell list. I could have 2 fireball or lightning bolts. It doesn't matter.

No it means he arrives with equipment. Before he comes to you, he is an NPC, he is not a begger.

No it doesn't. You're interpreting that but no, it doesn't say you get a fully equipped cohort. That's ridiculous.

You only consult the table when attracting NEW followers. Its not a continuous thing.

That's likewise ridiculous. You could claim to have killed 20 followers, taken their gear and leveled your follower up to his current level.
We're already operating under the assumption that the wizard gets to pick and choose his follower's entire feat selection and manipulate his XP total to use him as a crafting mule - you realise that right?

Also, they tend to be rather unneeded. The Cohort is the important part of the feat.

This is likewise irrelevant. You want to get a familiar and not suffer the leadership penalty but blantantly ridiculous is doing the same with a stronghold and followers.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Actually, if you check the rules text I quoted, it mentions every form of magic item that stores spells and has an associated level limit.

I agree 100%.. Metamagic rods don't store spells. Done deal.

 

[Kem]

You STILL can't pick a role in a 4 member party. You are stuck trying to do everything.

Well we've got a little "shock and awe" with an extremely potent couple of rounds of utter destruction the likes of which only metamagic rods can provide.

How many rounds of combat are you viable for? You do know how bad direct damage is right? Notice that your GOOD combos above reply not on damage?

You do know that the Wizard has more spells available to cast and will do more damage per spell and have a wider variety of spells to cast?

You are up against DISINTIGRATE while you whip out your best two spells. You are then up against your regular routine while you are on your BAD set of spells.

As such you fail to take the wizard's role.

We've got the insane defensive spells of a cleric and the defensive domain powers to make sure that "Urge" stays alive no matter what.

You being alive and having to cast all those spells, on yourself, in no way matter.

While you are casting those spells, you are unable to cast the wizard spells you talked about above.

As such you are not as defensive as a cleric, unless you admit you are subpar as a wizard. You are also unable to turn undead, your AC sucks due to lack of armor, your HP are low. Set your sights lower. The wizard loses less. The cleric loses alot going into the Myth.

As such you get to pick which you suck at.

We've got the firepower of a mage.

Mage has Disintegrate, you have Fireball. Do the math.

Can plane shift AND teleport the party.

If you replace the wizard, the cleric can cast one. If you replace the cleric the wizard can do the other.

Can spontaneously convert my spells to healing spells.

You don't have HEAL. You can't convert that one.

And I can switch it up with a little preparation to go the divine-power-righteous-might-quickened-true-strike route too.

Replacing the cleric? Who has more HP, Better AC due to armor, shield, not needing an Ioun stone of +1 Caster level, and HEAL so they don't need to keep casting weaker heal spells.

You are not replacing the cleric, ever. Don't even try. The only chance you have is at replacing the wizard. Your Buff Bot has 1 single encounter in him. After that he's really sad.

You are not replacing the fighter, who easily has 2x your HP, better AC, and better To Hit.

Yeah pretty much well got the bases covered. Ready to join munchy campaigns worldwide.

I wouldn't with that character. Unless you are in a party of bards (Although they could be viable if you allowed some non-core books), you will be one of the weaker character.

When people whip out spells like HEAL, HARM, and DISINTIGRATE, noone really worries about fireball. In fact, with those spells available, I'd RATHER be hit by fireball. At least that maxes out at 90. Heck of a lot better then 120/144.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I agree 100%.. Metamagic rods don't store spells. Done deal.

Alright. :\

Look - the general rule is that magic items care about modified spell level, not base spell level.

Can you post the exact wording of the MMR rules text?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Nope, they are 5th level spells for magic item purposes.

Nope, they are not. Read it up, spell level, not slot. It's irrelevant what slot it occupies. All that's relevant is spell level.
Just buy them with you cash. Who cares?

Actually, it isn't. You have to have a hand free to cast the spell, and you only have two hands. That means you can only have one rod in hand, and can't use both your metamagic rods at once.

I have my rods tethered to me by strong yet short chain.
Maximize rod in hand: Maximized empowered fireball (standard action)
Drop rod (free action)
Pick up metamagic rod of quicken spell (move equivalent action)
Quickened empowered fireball (free action)
*Urp, that was easy*

Now um, where's your write up? With the leadership penalty for having a familiar if you have one?

 

[Kem]

No it doesn't. You're interpreting that but no, it doesn't say you get a fully equipped cohort. That's ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous? It says the cohort has gear as an NPC. This is not a "the cohort must be equiped as a NPC to stay" is says specifically "The DM determines the details of the character. The Cohort has gear as an NPC".

That's likewise ridiculous. You could claim to have killed 20 followers, taken their gear and leveled your follower up to his current level.

Thats a -40 on your cohort leadership value. Unless you have a Leadership score of 2 or higher, no cohort.

We're already operating under the assumption that the wizard gets to pick and choose his follower's entire feat selection and manipulate his XP total to use him as a crafting mule - you realise that right?

Once in the party, you are like their mentor. And you can choose to attract a certain type of cohort.

All they are looking to do here is attract a Cleric who is able to create his own gear, as to be more self sufficient.

This is likewise irrelevant. You want to get a familiar and not suffer the leadership penalty but blantantly ridiculous is doing the same with a stronghold and followers.

Oh you suffer the leadership penalty. It just doesn't matter.

Just like having your Int permenently drained doesn't decrease already gained skill points, or the spells you had in your spellbook at level 1.

 

[Kem]

Now um, where's your write up? With the leadership penalty for having a familiar if you have one?

Your character isn't even legal yet.

 

[DungeonMaster]

You STILL can't pick a role in a 4 member party. You are stuck trying to do everything.

Stuck "trying to do everything?" Urge does do everything. And we can have 2 Urges, just like him rather than a wizard and cleric in our party.

How many rounds of combat are you viable for? You do know how bad direct damage is right? Notice that your GOOD combos above reply not on damage?

A large number maybe 2 or 3 less than the wizard + cohort? And no I tend to think 60+ damage is pretty good, especially when you save for massive damage each time.
I personally wouldn't go for the quicken rod and would just get 2 more maximize rods but this is for "shock and awe".

You do know that the Wizard has more spells available to cast and will do more damage per spell and have a wider variety of spells to cast?

No I didn't know that, in fact it's not at all true. That wider variety had better include some defensive magic or he's pretty dead. I have all my defensive magic from my clerical side.

You are up against DISINTIGRATE while you whip out your best two spells. You are then up against your regular routine while you are on your BAD set of spells.

Hmm... 3.5 disintegrate, the weak version right? Touch AC of 18, I can take 5d6 on the save in stride, because I get to re-roll remember? Luck domain granted power and all? Try feeblemind wisdom-less wizard.
What exactly is a "bad" set of spells? I have hold persons, stinking clouds, walls of ice, fireballs, lightning bolts, searing light, charms, I can target all types of saving throws but I aim primarily for reflex, because it's the worst for the majority of things.

The cleric loses alot going into the Myth.

He does, in hitpoints, but at any point of the day I can strap on armor and well, fight pretty damn good with divine power and righteous might if that's the nature of the battle.
This MT has a defensive spell-casting focus, it's not like he can't change in a minute. And he can throw arcane buffs up too.

As such you get to pick which you suck at.

The MT does not "suck". It is uber.

Mage has Disintegrate, you have Fireball. Do the math.

Correction, I have empowered maximized fireball. An 8th level slot. Does anything in 3.5 fear 3.5 disintegrate? I've lost track since it was nerfed. Poor beholders. You used to inspire fear.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Why is it ridiculous? It says the cohort has gear as an NPC. This is not a "the cohort must be equiped as a NPC to stay" is says specifically "The DM determines the details of the character. The Cohort has gear as an NPC".

Not in my SRD:
"The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself. The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level. A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. The cohort’s alignment may not be opposed to the leader’s alignment on either the law-vs-chaos or good-vs-evil axis, and the leader takes a Leadership penalty if he recruits a cohort of an alignment different from his own."
And nothing more.

Unless you have a Leadership score of 2 or higher, no cohort.

Make it 10 of them then, you know what I mean.

All they are looking to do here is attract a Cleric who is able to create his own gear, as to be more self sufficient.

Dude here wants to use the cohort as some sort of item creation mule.

Oh you suffer the leadership penalty. It just doesn't matter.

Sadly it does.

And I think I've cleared up all mistakes.

 

[Kem]

Stuck "trying to do everything?" Urge does do everything. And we can have 2 Urges, just like him rather than a wizard and cleric in our party.

No you don't do everything. At any one time the most precious commodity, TIME, is limited and in any given frame of time you are stuck doing ONE thing.

You miss this. Bigtime.

A large number maybe 2 or 3 less than the wizard + cohort? And no I tend to think 60+ damage is pretty good, especially when you save for massive damage each time.
I personally wouldn't go for the quicken rod and would just get 2 more maximize rods but this is for "shock and awe".

*laugh* Your Save DC is 18. Thats it. You are doing 30+ not 60+ to most targets.

Even YOUR Reflex save makes that on a 6. A SIX.

No I didn't know that, in fact it's not at all true. That wider variety had better include some defensive magic or he's pretty dead. I have all my defensive magic from my clerical side.

Blink, Displacement, Improved Invis, how much more do you need? You don't have TIME to cast your defensive spells if you are going offensive. You have to pick one.

Hmm... 3.5 disintegrate, the weak version right? Touch AC of 19, I can take 5d6 on the save in stride, because I get to re-roll remember? Luck domain granted power and all? Try feeblemind wisdom-less wizard.

Yeah, um, not an arena match. Wanna try that again?

What exactly is a "bad" set of spells? I have hold persons, stinking clouds, walls of ice, fireballs, lightning bolts, searing light, charms, I can target all types of saving throws but I aim primarily for reflex, because it's the worst for the majority of things.

Yeah those are most of them. Wall of ice and Hold Person are ok. Hold person blows against casters, Wall of Ice is good. Glad you got a couple good spells. While you are using these though, the wizard is still on level 5 spells. Good Game. Not to mention the wizard still has those spells. You know for AFTER duplicating your Emp/Max Fireballs.

He does, in hitpoints, but at any point of the day I can strap on armor and well, fight pretty damn good with divine power and righteous might if that's the nature of the battle.
This MT has a defensive spell-casting focus, it's not like he can't change in a minute. And he can throw arcane buffs up too.

You will never replace a Cleric. Mostly because you CAN'T change into armor in a minute. Without Silent Spell you are not casting any good Mage buffs before putting it on.

The MT does not "suck". It is uber.

Playtest him then. I can tell for a fact, that you would never think of playtesting it. And I have never heard of anyone saying that from playtesting they are overpowered. Only in made up situations like arenas, and theoretical discussions such as this.

Correction, I have empowered maximized fireball. An 8th level slot. Does anything in 3.5 fear 3.5 disintegrate?

So can the wizard. Whats your point? The Wizard can do it ALOT more then you also. AND can cast 24d6 non-fire damage at a single target. You can't.

So, I would like to point out another questionable game mechanic you are using.

Metamagic Rods.
Your character is utter garbage without them, so I will conceed that Metamagic Rods are very powerful. Too bad your character isn't.