Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[DungeonMaster]

Your save DCs on your fireballs are 18, and you first have to overcome spell resistance to get through (and your caster check isn't that great). The wizard saves on a 7, the cleric saves on a 6. You were saying the saves were "unlikely"? In any event, the wizard probably, since he can cast contingency has one that triggers something like a lesser globe of invulnerability whenever he is subjected to hostile magic.

Dude, my caster level is 12 vs. your SR of 18. I can CAST SR on myself for hours at SR of 22. You havn't even picked spells. And your will save and pathetic touch AC means 50% of the time you're a drooling 1 hp nobody with a single feeblemind. Ooops. Did the Urge just kill you again?

Meanwile the Wizard (who probably gets the initiative on you, spell casters are all about initiative) hits you with something like a flesh to stone, save DC 24, you save on a 12 or the combat is done.

You still havn't picked spells. Your save DC is 23 with flesh to stone incidentally.

The cleric can then hit you with flame strike save DC 21, in which case you suffer 5d6 or 10d6 damage or casts righteous might and moves up towards you, to whack you with an AoO if you try to cast a spell. They could take any number of other options, most of which would really hamper your day due to the wizard's higher level spells, and the higher save DCs both of them have.

OH NO! Not a flame-strike! Does maximized empowered fireball + quickened empowered fireball not resonate? How about the dimension door I have from domain abilities?
I don't think arena combat is your um, selling point here.

And the wizard's disintegrate DC would be 24. His touch attack roll bonus is +8, so he hits about half the time. You fail your save more than half the time. If he hits, prepare to suck up 24d6 damage.

Oh so 12% of the time with re-roll you um, *might* cause some damage?

It is a limited set of spells, based on your very weak spell book.

I presume with your "left over cash" your spell book is overflowing.

You have an odd definition of "uber", one that apparently means "not as good as standard classes at things". In point of fact, compared to the alternatives, the MT pretty much sucks.

Point in fact, it's completely out-doing your wizard + cohort idea.

 

[Kem]

Dude, my caster level is 12 vs. your SR of 18. I can CAST SR on myself for hours at SR of 22. You havn't even picked spells. And your will save and pathetic touch AC means 50% of the time you're a drooling 1 hp nobody with a single feeblemind. Ooops. Did the Urge just kill you again?

This is not an arena, its a game with 3 OTHER party members. Please remember this. Everyone.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Yeah, I pretty much can. You can cast 5 3rd level wizard spells, I can cast 6. You can cast 4 4th level wizard spells, I can cast 5. You can cast 3 5th level wizard spells, I can cast 4.

No you can't. Because you didn't buy the rods I can cast higher sloted magic than you can.
Again, I could buy pearls of power. You've won nothing.

No, I just don't need them to cast two spells per round. Having two casters does that. You use the rods to patch a weakness, a weakness my character doesn't have. So I don't need them.

Your cleric dies in round 1. Why? Because he is under-geared. What now? I guess that's it for your "advantage".

I have more combined hit points than you by a huge margin. My wizard has 55.5, the cleric has 78.5. Urge only has 52.5. My wizard by himself has more hit points than you.

Urge has 63.5 hp. You die in roughly 1 round still. Saving both times.

The wizard has an AC only a few points less than yours, while the cleric has an AC a fair amount higher. Being able to cast shield (since he can use abjurations) makes up the difference (much of your AC comes from a first level spell, so mine can counter).

PICK SPELLS .

Saves? I have SR, you don't. My save totals are almost as high as yours in every category, even for the cohort (who gets save bonuses against things like spells, and has enough hit points to take more punishment to begin with). I think you need to actually read what has been written.

your "save total"? Tell that to feeblemind. I think it cares.

And raw firepower? I have 6th level spells. I can blast things far better than you ever could hope to. My save DCs are far higher than yours, since you keep insisting on using metamagiced 3rd level spells. While you monkey about with fireballs, I'll be using things like chain lightning, cone of cold, and cloudkill, you know, higher level spells.

PICK SPELLS . Urge can cast cloudkill and cone of cold. Your chain lightning is pathetic compared to a maximized empowered fireball. You have +1 DC for um, all of those spells listed.

I have a higher caster level. My base save DCs are higher. My spell penetration is better.

+2, +1, +2. I have more hp, better AC, better saves, divine abilities, don't have to buff two-characters, higher level equivalent spells, oh god where does the list end?

PICK SPELLS. There's no point in further arguing with you when I provide a complete write up and you provide a handwaiving.

 

[Storm Raven]

Dude, my caster level is 12 vs. your SR of 18. I can CAST SR on myself for hours at SR of 22.

Sure you could. I hope you aren't hoping to spend that 5th level spell slot on something else.

You havn't even picked spells.

There's no reason to. It's already obvious that the Urge is hopelessly outlclassed.

And your will save and pathetic touch AC means 50% of the time you're a drooling 1 hp nobody with a single feeblemind. Ooops. Did the Urge just kill you again?

Your touch attack is +8, my touch AC is 14, so you need a 4 to hit to begin with. You need to overcome SR, which you fail a quarter of the time. Your save DC is pathetic: 20. The wizard's Will save is +13. Even accounting for the -4 adjustment, the wizard saves 50% of the time. So, the actual chance that you will succeed is 28%. And you have yet to deal with the cohort, who can probably whack you around by himself.

I hope you aren't caught flat-footed. Your touch AC is only 10 then.

You still havn't picked spells. Your save DC is 23 with flesh to stone incidentally.

Nope, 24. 10 + 6 Intelligence modifier + 6 spell level + 1 Spell Focus + 1 Greater Spell Focus = 24.

OH NO! Not a flame-strike! Does maximized empowered fireball + quickened empowered fireball not resonate? How about the dimension door I have from domain abilities?
I don't think arena combat is your um, selling point here.

it's a flame strike plus a disitnegrate, or flesh to stone. You seem to forget that while you can cast two spells per round three times per day, my guys can do it 28 times per day. 10d6 damage averages 35 points, and the disintegrate you saved against caused you 17.5 damage. You are at 0, even if you save against the disintegrate. If you fail the save, you are almost surely dead (84 average damage).

Oh so 12% of the time with re-roll you um, *might* cause some damage?

I burn up your reroll. And then you don't have it any more. And your character gets picked apart.

I presume with your "left over cash" your spell book is overflowing.

Pretty much, given that I left thousands of gp in the kitty, and you left pennies.

Point in fact, it's completely out-doing your wizard + cohort idea.

You are the only one posting here who thinks so. Your utility is very limited, to a few rounds per day, and even then, the wizard + cohort outmatches you down the line. The point isn't who can win a heads up fight, in a spell casting duel that is almost always the one who wins initiative unless the other gets lucky. The key is who is more valuable over the long haul, and that's clearly the wizard + cohort combination. They have 53 more total spell levels than you to cast, they can cast two spells per round 25 more times per day than you, they have higher save DCs for their spells, they have more useful sundry abilities, and can absorb more damage than you.

 

[DungeonMaster]

This is not an arena, its a game with 3 OTHER party members. Please remember this. Everyone.

Sure. I agree. If it were an arena, he'd be dead. Which is also fairly easy to agree upon.
Now until he picks spells, to satisfy those crafting requirements I don't think there's much more to discuss.

 

[Kem]

Sure. I agree. If it were an arena, he'd be dead. Which is also fairly easy to agree upon.
Now until he picks spells, to satisfy those crafting requirements I don't think there's much more to discuss.

Actually in an Arena, whoever loses initiative loses.

He took II, you lost already.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Sure you could. I hope you aren't hoping to spend that 5th level spell slot on something else.

I have it memorized get it? Because I picked spells and actually offered up a sample spell selection. What are you lazy? Afraid it won't look so-hot? Can't afford all the neat-o spells you want? Just do it.

Your touch attack is +8, my touch AC is 14, so you need a 4 to hit to begin with. You need to overcome SR, which you fail a quarter of the time. Your save DC is pathetic: 20. The wizard's Will save is +13. Even accounting for the -4 adjustment, the wizard saves 50% of the time. So, the actual chance that you will succeed is 28%. And you have yet to deal with the cohort, who can probably whack you around by himself.

Quickened true-strike. Oh look I didn't roll a 1. Feeblemind.

You seem to forget that while you can cast two spells per round three times per day, my guys can do it 28 times per day.

Not when they're dead. Your cohort dies in round 1 remember. 38.75 minimum damage from the plain maximized empowered fireball then the next fireball for 26.25 minimum damage. Them dwarven clerics don't save none to good neither.
And you have no teleportation magic.

10d6 damage averages 35 points, and the disintegrate you saved against caused you 17.5 damage. You are at 0, even if you save against the disintegrate. If you fail the save, you are almost surely dead (84 average damage).

I burn up your reroll. And then you don't have it any more. And your character gets picked apart.

Funny that you have none and would be dead?

The key is who is more valuable over the long haul, and that's clearly the wizard + cohort combination. They have 53 more total spell levels than you to cast, they can cast two spells per round 25 more times per day than you, they have higher save DCs for their spells, they have more useful sundry abilities, and can absorb more damage than you.

They fail their saves more often, they need to cast spells on both to be effective, they don't have combined abilities and your spell level analysis is so horribly flawed it's unreal.

 

[Storm Raven]

No you can't. Because you didn't buy the rods I can cast higher sloted magic than you can.

Three times per day. Oh, wow. How were you going to offset the 53 extra levels of spells that my guys can cast? With a rod? Don't make me laugh.

Again, I could buy pearls of power. You've won nothing.

And then you don't have the rods, and can't cast two spells per round.

Your cleric dies in round 1. Why? Because he is under-geared. What now? I guess that's it for your "advantage".

Except, of course, he doesn't. Why? Because his saves and hit points save him. And he cast spell resistance, giving him SR 22, making your spells less than effective.

Urge has 63.5 hp. You die in roughly 1 round still. Saving both times.

If you pentrate SR. And if you don't, as I said before, trigger the contingency that activates a lesser globe of invulnerability that makes him invulnerable to your fireballs, giving you a bunch of wasted effort.

PICK SPELLS .

Why bother? In every area that counts, the wizard + cohort outclass you, able to cast more spells, higher level spells, more effectively than you. Going through the motions of picking spells is just silly at this point. You lost the debate. You may as well admit it.

your "save total"? Tell that to feeblemind. I think it cares.

And you only succeed 28% of the time. Ohh, scary.

PICK SPELLS . Urge can cast cloudkill and cone of cold.

yes he can. At a lower caster level. And not as often. You just seem to want to kill your save DCs by throwing around hopped up 3rd level spells for some reason.

Your chain lightning is pathetic compared to a maximized empowered fireball. You have +1 DC for um, all of those spells listed.

Your maximized empowered fireball has a save DC of 18. The chain lightning has a save DC of 22. That's quite a bit more than 1. While everyone saves against your spell, you fail against the chain lightning almost half the time.

+2, +1, +2. I have more hp, better AC, better saves, divine abilities, don't have to buff two-characters, higher level equivalent spells, oh god where does the list end?

You start behind by 53 spell levels. You can only cast two spells per round three times per day. Your divine abilities are severely hampered by your low cleric level (your freedom of movement only lasts three rounds per day, you turn undead as 3rd level cleric). My cohort has divine abillities too, and uses them as a 10th level cleric. You lose on that score too.

PICK SPELLS. There's no point in further arguing with you when I provide a complete write up and you provide a handwaiving.

You've hopelessly lost the argument. You only want to harp on this irrelevant issue in a desperate attempt to obscure that fact.

 

[Storm Raven]

I have it memorized get it? Because I picked spells and actually offered up a sample spell selection. What are you lazy? Afraid it won't look so-hot? Can't afford all the neat-o spells you want? Just do it.

because it doesn't matter. The argument is over, and you lost. Abjectly. Apparently the only person who doesn't see that is you.

Quickened true-strike. Oh look I didn't roll a 1. Feeblemind.

Your odds only go up to 35% to succeed.

Not when they're dead. Your cohort dies in round 1 remember. 38.75 minimum damage from the plain maximized empowered fireball then the next fireball for 26.25 minimum damage. Them dwarven clerics don't save none to good neither.

He saves against your fireballs on a 6. Oh, sorry, did that ruin your train of thought? And if you are busy casting feeblemind, how are you casting your fireballs?

And you have no teleportation magic.

I might, in fact, as a transmuter, I probably do. But it doesn't matter to begin with.

Funny that you have none and would be dead?

You seem to assume a lot. You assume you win intiative. You assume your spells overcome SR. You assume that a wizard capable of casting contingency won't have it, and won't use it to protect himself. You assume that everyone will fail their saves. You assume you will always make yours.

They fail their saves more often, they need to cast spells on both to be effective, they don't have combined abilities and your spell level analysis is so horribly flawed it's unreal.

Really? Then you are saying I don't have 2 more 2nd level slots, 1 more 3rd level slot, 2 more 4th level slots, 2 more 5th level slots, and 4 more 6th level slots than you? It's there, the numbers are up for everyone to see. You can delude yourself over this if you want, but you are outclassed as a caster here.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Actually in an Arena, whoever loses initiative loses.
He took II, you lost already.

Not when you can re-roll. I can re-roll initiative. +3 (his dex is lower) vs re-rolling means he loses.
And I agree. In an arena, initiative is prime mover. And weren't you of the opinion that contingency takes effect after the triggering event?
Evard's black + silence, feeblemind, or going nuclear. There's no hope.
If the metamagic rods are "useless" and "not factored" into the equation that easily frees up 3 feats for me too. Really the consolidated defenses of the Theurge means he will win, regardless.


Anyhow, it's late here and if there isn't an actual spell list and spell book by tommorow then I will consider it conceeding defeat in the argument.