Which PrCl would you never want in your game? (part 1 - DMG)

[dnabre]

Actually, I didn't, He posed the idea, but here goes/:

Sorry, easy to lost track of these things. I don't think the spell list matters, but it does remove a point of dispute.

Leadership can be powerful, but few people have said "ban it". On the other hand, lots of people say that the comparatively weak MT class should be banned. The problem with the MT is that it is slow. Until he hit 12th level, and could craft his metamagic rods, Urge was really slow from round to round when casting spells (one per round, except the rare 1st level quickened spell). Basically, this level (12th) is the high point of Urge's existence, and the Wiz-Clr combination still outdoes him pretty handily.

I've never allowed leadership in my games. Not as a matter of balance, but simply to keep the number of characters on the table down (with animal companions, familiars, mounts, NPCs traveling with the party, summons, this tend to slow down). Just seems sort of weird to trade a feat that gives +4 to Initiative for something that gives you a powerful NPC to help you out. I know it's limited by the leadership score and by the DM getting to pick out the details of the NPC.

I know MT is slow to get going. I was working on one in a campaign, which end when you got around 4th level (was planned to go much further). Wizard 2/Cleric 2 is amazingly weak compared to a normal 4th level Wizard or Cleric. Admittedly, for a small party I was able to fill two roles. I was the ultimate utility caster, but I was very little use in combat.

The real power of the MT is in their diverse abilities. As a healer or battle caster, he'll always be weak compared to a straight up caster, but he's much more likely to have that one spell you need right now. He seems like he'd work the best either in a party of with no primary casters, or one with both a cleric and wizard filling in the holes in their abilities. Also handy is that can easily specialize without losing generality, using their cleric spells to compensate.

I'm just going to have play one, or have someone in my campaign play one to figure out if balance is really an issue. I'm starting to think it won't be. Looking at what is supposed to be a tweaked out MT above, they seem rather gear dependent. Once the costs for equipment that any character that's actually going to be adventuring is going to need are factored in not to mention the months of downtime needed to craft all everything, they're likely to be a bit weaker. I think the MT build left 50gp for scrolls, potions, wands, and food.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Here's one for you.

You've liberally abused the crafting system Kem. Earings of intelligence boost and such. I've actually used the plain items. Your character is invalid.
(mithral sheild? and you complained about my monk belt !!!)

 

[DungeonMaster]

1st: Enlarge Person, Grease, Identify, Magic Missile, Shield, True Strike
2nd: Cats' Grace, Fox's Cunning, Glitterdust, Pyrotechnics, Scorching Ray, See Invisibility
3rd: Blink, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Slow
4th: Dimension Door, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Mass Enlarge Person, Polymorph
5th: Baleful Polymorph, Cone of Cold, Feeblemind, Telekenisis, Teleport
6th: Antimagic Field, Acid Fog, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone, Greater Dispel Magic.

You have to pay for all these extra spells. And the scribing costs.

I didn't optimize the spell selections to deal with the "arena duel" silliness that DungeonMaster seems to think is so important, but to contribute to the success of a party over the course of a day's adventuring. of course, there are several tactics that coul be used with this spell array to seriously ruin Urge's day, but that's not the point.

The current MT is NOT optimized for an arena duel. At all. He's made specifically so it's difficult for you to meet his abilities - which you havn't been able to do, for want of cash. Because beleive it or not that was your argument pages ago I tried to address by posting an actual build - that the MT is not "want" for item crafting. He's better geared by far than the other characters. And everything applies to him and him alone.

 

[Storm Raven]

You have to pay for all these extra spells. And the scribing costs.

I did. That's why I left myself a significant pool of cash to use.

The current MT is NOT optimized for an arena duel. At all. He's made specifically so it's difficult for you to meet his abilities - which you havn't been able to do, for want of cash.

I've matched every ability of yours and more. The real amusing thing is you can't seem to figure that out. How are you doing in the 6th round of combat for the day? You are real big on saying "I can do X on round 1", but strangely silent when it comes to rounds 4+. You say "he's not built for an arena duel", but then every post of yours amounts to "I can kill you on round 1" (a highly dubious proposition I might add).

Because beleive it or not that was your argument pages ago I tried to address by posting an actual build - that the MT is not "want" for item crafting. He's better geared by far than the other characters. And everything applies to him and him alone.

He needs to be better geared, just so he can keep up, which he hasn't. You have to blow wads of cash just to be able to match the double spell casting ability of Wiz-Clr, and you can only do that for a few rounds per day. You have to blow wads of cash to be able to have a caster level as high as Clr, and you are still 2 caster levels behind Wiz. You have to blow wads of cash to keep up in skills, and you are still 13+ skill points behind the combination of Clr-Wiz. You are "better equipped", but that only serves to offset to a minor degree your inherent weaknesses compared to Wiz-Clr.

If only you understood how outclassed you truly are.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I did. That's why I left myself a significant pool of cash to use.

You need to "POST" it. Geez... what's the problem?

I've matched every ability of yours and more. The real amusing thing is you can't seem to figure that out. How are you doing in the 6th round of combat for the day?

Pretty good because beleive it or not flesh-to-stone is not necessarily the best thing to cast when a collosal scorpion charges you. "fly", a lower level spell is a much better option. You fail to see this. And that it takes *2* fly spells to get the same effect.
And you havn't matched my character's power. You have no rods.

 

[Storm Raven]

You need to "POST" it. Geez... what's the problem?

What? You can't do math?

Pretty good because beleive it or not flesh-to-stone is not necessarily the best thing to cast when a collosal scorpion charges you. "fly", a lower level spell is a much better option. You fail to see this. And that it takes *2* fly spells to get the same effect.
And you havn't matched my character's power. You have no rods.

I don't need rods. Get that through your head. You need the quicken rod because otherwise you can't cast two spells in a round without a significant spell level hit. I don't. I can cast two spells in a round 28 rounds in a row.

I don't need flesh to stone for the collosal scorpion. I can use acid fog for that, and stop him cold (no save). The cohort casts spike stones, keeping the scopion in place even longer, while it gets pounded on, suffers damage, likely ends up with slowed movement, and generally gets chewed up. I don't need two fly spells, I can use the other spells I posted. You seem fixated on the spells you prefer, but the problem is, that they aren't the greatest spells. There are alternatives, and they are quite effective.

How useful are you in the 6th round, when the only thing you are doing is casting fly and getting away? How much is that helping your party? You are basically saying to the rest of your party "I'm saving myself boys, I hope he doesn't kill you before next round". My guys are saying "we'll hold him in place, you guys pound on him with ranged attacks while he struggles to break free". Who is the more valuable member of the team?

I have more than matched your character's power. It is amusing that you can't figure this out.

 

[the Jester]

So is there going to be a part 2 to this thread or what?

 

[dnabre]

I think it's quite clear (at least to some of us) that the Wizard with Cleric cohort is more generally capable than the Wizard/Cleric/MT. How hard do you think it'd be able to demonstrate this without using the leadership feat?

Being able to add a cleric cohort makes the comparison very easy, but for those that don't use leadership (for whatever reasons), is the MT still balanced against a straight caster?

 

[Storm Raven]

Being able to add a cleric cohort makes the comparison very easy, but for those that don't use leadership (for whatever reasons), is the MT still balanced against a straight caster?

Generally. The MT lags behind in spell level, and has to use expensive items to up that. Without the cohort to equip, the straight caster can match the MT item for item, without any real trouble. The MT has to worry about two primary spell casting attributes, so, all things being equal, he typically lags behind in save DCs and bonus spells for that class. He doesn't get the wizard bonus spells (when matched against a wizard), and his turning and domain abilities are pretty limited by his low cleric level and he can't use most of his spells while in armor (when matched against a wizard).

The MT has value - he can cast a lot of lower levelled spells, and fill in as an extra caster. But he can't match the higher level spells of the straight caster, and has to worry about things like his double spell casting attributes, and lousy sundry abilities.

(By the way, anyone notice that DungeonMaster has said Urge would be able to "strap on some armor" and go into melee effectively. Check his Strength, even with righteous might he's only up to a 12 Strength - not that impressive).

 

[dnabre]

(By the way, anyone notice that DungeonMaster has said Urge would be able to "strap on some armor" and go into melee effectively. Check his Strength, even with righteous might he's only up to a 12 Strength - not that impressive).

I think not owning armor would more an issue than being strong enough to move decently in it.