Which rules are 'flavour' rules?

[hong]

Whoa - you really think so? You don't think magical full plate and a large shield, granting up to a total possible +20 to armor class, makes any difference for the wizard, sorcerer, and bard beyond flavor?

Not really. A high-level wiz can already get AC up into the 40s:

base 10
Dex 20 (doubly-empowered cat's grace): 5
+8 bracers of armour: 8
shield: 7
haste: 4
+5 ring of protection: 5
+5 amulet of natural armour: 5
= total AC 44

The only short-duration spells used are haste and shield; the cat's grace will be on all day. That's comparable with a tank in +5 plate, +5 shield, +5 ring and +5 amulet, which is AC 41 (45 with haste). Even at low levels, a wiz with mage armour and shield (AC 21 minimum) has equivalent protection to a fighter in full plate.

The weakness for arcane spellcasters isn't AC, it's hit points. In fact, you could even argue that they _need_ those AC buffs, otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance in combat, being too fragile.

 

[diaglo]

all the rules beyond rule 0 are flavor for me.

i am of the opinion you have to adjust the rules to fit your campaign and players' tastes.

 

[Psion]

[*]favoured class for the various humanoids (e.g. elf wizard)

I think which class is favored is a flavor rule, but I think the existence of them is not wholly a flavor rule... they help limit the number of "1 level" classes you can reasonably take, which helps prevent some ridiculous combinations.

 

[Psion]

I'll agree with the rest of them except this one; beware a slight weakening of the attractiveness of the sorcerer class if wizards scribe new spells into their spell books cheaply. If wizards scribe cheap, the sorcerer should really get about one extra spell from spell levels 1-5 at the high-character-level end of the spells known chart, IMO.

Indeed. In fact, we are arguing this one over on NL right now... I think this plays a pretty important role in limiting the wizard's already impressive flexibility.

 

[Xarlen]

Whoa - you really think so? You don't think magical full plate and a large shield, granting up to a total possible +20 to armor class, makes any difference for the wizard, sorcerer, and bard beyond flavor?

Take a look at clerics.

Now tell me if it makes a difference.

Not ONLY can clerics pop on that +20 bonus, they can slap on further AC boosting spells. Magical Vestment, Shield of Faith, plus magical items and such to further boost their AC. And then they can cast in all that armor, unhindered, and still lay thy smacketh down. And when spells are out, they can go and whip some ass with their gawdly weapons.

This rule moos, my friend.

 

[Deadguy]

Indeed. In fact, we are arguing this one over on NL right now... I think this plays a pretty important role in limiting the wizard's already impressive flexibility.

Hmmm.. I think that a Wizard's flexibility is often theoretical rather than practical. the act of having to prepare spells means that they have to guess aright to have the optimal spell for the situation. Of course, having a wider range of spells doesn't alter this - they're still having the guess which spells to have prepped in advance. But by having a wider range of spells, I find it encourages the Wizard to leave slots open. When they can whip out the exact spell for the circumstances it feels much more satisfying than having to bodge an approximate fit.

 

[Psion]

Hmmm.. I think that a Wizard's flexibility is often theoretical rather than practical. the act of having to prepare spells means that they have to guess aright to have the optimal spell for the situation.

Or leave a spell slot open.

Even discounting that, I think you are remiss in dismissing what the wizard CAN do PERIOD by simply assuming that not having it immediately handy totally answers the question. To some extent it does (and this is the side I am arguing on NL). But being able to teleport AT ALL with a bit of study is still a significant boon over not being able to. Likewise knock, read thoughts, throw up a wall of force, etc.

 

[Ace]

Indeed. In fact, we are arguing this one over on NL right now... I think this plays a pretty important role in limiting the wizard's already impressive flexibility.

i will digess a bit and mention that we allow a Sorcerer to have bonus spells known based on his Charisma

This has the effect of adding 1 spell to each of the low levels more or less and IMO works very well

As an aside I alos dumped scribing costs (they hurt the wiz) and give all spell casters bonus cantrips as 1st level spells, just because

Back on topic I think the biggest "flavor" rules (and most annoying) is the Ranger virtual feat limits, druid weapons, monk and paladin multi classing

 

[Mouseferatu]

Not really. A high-level wiz can already get AC up into the 40s:

base 10
Dex 20 (doubly-empowered cat's grace): 5
+8 bracers of armour: 8
shield: 7
haste: 4
+5 ring of protection: 5
+5 amulet of natural armour: 5
= total AC 44

The only short-duration spells used are haste and shield; the cat's grace will be on all day. That's comparable with a tank in +5 plate, +5 shield, +5 ring and +5 amulet, which is AC 41 (45 with haste). Even at low levels, a wiz with mage armour and shield (AC 21 minimum) has equivalent protection to a fighter in full plate.

The weakness for arcane spellcasters isn't AC, it's hit points. In fact, you could even argue that they _need_ those AC buffs, otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance in combat, being too fragile.

Problem, though.

Most of what you've got listed--everything but the bracers--stacks with armor. So suddenly, by allowing armor, you've got wizards with an AC not in the 30s or 40s, but into the upper 50s and possibly into the 60s if we've missed something.

Observe:

Base: 10
Dex 20 (doubly-empowered cat's grace): 5
Full plate +5: 13
Heavy metal shield +5: 7
Shield (spell): 7
Haste: 4
+5 ring of protection: 5
+5 amulet of natural armour: 5
=total AC 56

That's definitely excessive.

As far as mages not standing a chance in battle, they aren't supposed to go toe-to-toe. That's kinda the whole point.

 

[Xarlen]

Problem, though.

Most of what you've got listed--everything but the bracers--stacks with armor. So suddenly, by allowing armor, you've got wizards with an AC not in the 30s or 40s, but into the upper 50s and possibly into the 60s if we've missed something.

Observe:

Base: 10
Dex 20 (doubly-empowered cat's grace): 5
Full plate +5: 13
Heavy metal shield +5: 7
Shield (spell): 7
Haste: 4
+5 ring of protection: 5
+5 amulet of natural armour: 5
=total AC 56

That's definitely excessive.

As far as mages not standing a chance in battle, they aren't supposed to go toe-to-toe. That's kinda the whole point.

I will also point out a Cleric with the Magic domain can simulate that combo exactly.