. . . while you're at it. . . Fix heavy armor!

Andor said:
Actually I think a big problem with Armour in 3e is the chain shirt. Maybe it should go away for 4e.

Very interesting and provocative idea.

Another solution is a greater cost differentiation between each +1 bump of AC.

But then you run into real-world issues of craftsmanship vs. cost.

Obviously, the table was designed with attention to armor "realism" greatly trumping gameplay and significant player choice.

From a gameplay standpoint, the players will quickly lock on to the most optimum choice at any given PC level, followed (a distant 2nd) by cost.

EDIT: I should also note that in my opinion, the entire economic assumptions of D&D need a serious overhaul. Throw everything out and start over.
 
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TerraDave said:
or is it mithril breastplate?

Judging from fantasy art, you'll surely agree that for females it's breastplates.

(on a side note, why is it a pair of pants, pair of glasses, pair of underpants, but one bra?)
 

ArmoredSaint said:
Since I am the guy in that video, what do you want to know about the armour's authenticity? I commissioned it as a copy of a late 15th century Italian harness (#B3) from the monastery of Santa Maria della Grazie, and now exhibited in the Ducal Palace in Mantova. IMO, the armourer (who is quite familiar with the suit, having examined it in person) did a pretty good job, keeping both the lines and weight near those of the original.
My question would be, how long could you keep that up for?

The thing with "you can move all you want in heavy armor" arguments is that D&D has no fatigue mechanic except under a couple of very specific circumstances. So maybe you can charge 60 feet and attack in 6 seconds in heavy plate just like unarmored. Cool. Can you do it again? Can you do it 10 times in a row and keep your speed up as well as you could do it unarmored? Can you do it after spending 6 hours in the armor on your feet?

Encumberance is one of those boring things a lot of groups like to ignore in my experience, but seeing a guy do a cartwheel in full plate is fun but unconvincing to me as a reason to change the rules, unless it was to implement a complicated and annoying scaling penalty chart for every hour of activity in the armor.
 

The "fatigue" issue goes further than armor. Few people can fight for their life for more than a handful of minutes before they're exhausted.
 

Kahuna Burger said:
My question would be, how long could you keep that up for?

You know, not to pile on, but I was surprised that rig weighs 70 lbs. (Impressed at the video also, goes without saying.)

I would also be curious how long it takes you to run a mile, with and without armor-- and how you hold up afterwards.

The thing with "you can move all you want in heavy armor" arguments is that D&D has no fatigue mechanic except under a couple of very specific circumstances. So maybe you can charge 60 feet and attack in 6 seconds in heavy plate just like unarmored. Cool. Can you do it again? Can you do it 10 times in a row and keep your speed up as well as you could do it unarmored? Can you do it after spending 6 hours in the armor on your feet?

I think it's safe to say 4e won't care-- or at least, it will care even less than 3e does, which was already even less than 2e or 1e. The game is ever more super-heroic fantasy.

EDIT: I would love to see this guy doing sprints with an unarmored buddy. You know, race to mid-field, stop for a breath, turn around race back again. Ten or twenty times. Standard soccer (endurance) training. Basketball players do it too-- half court and back.

EDIT 2: Again, this is in no way to criticize the gent in the video. Not putting him to the test, so much as the armor. To put it another way, if I had a set of armor myself, I'd be happy to share the results.
 
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A cursory glance suggest that modern infantry carry gear weighing 60-100lbs.

I assume that they, like medieval knights, can keep going for most of the day.

The issues regarding armour are often overstated.

ARMA (http://www.thearma.org/) are a good place to start.
 

Simon Marks said:
A cursory glance suggest that modern infantry carry gear weighing 60-100lbs.

I assume that they, like medieval knights, can keep going for most of the day.
That's the same estimated range for the Roman Legionnaires too. We can't say exactly what it all weighed, but between 65 lbs and 100 lbs are the most common guesses.

My personal experience is limited to extended backpacking camping; never armor. When I was in high school Boy Scouts my pack could weigh as much as 55 lbs, and that was heavy enough, but I was a pretty chubby kid, and not as fit or strong as I am now (and even today I am nowhere near as fit or strong as any well trained soldier; modern or historical). Even then though I could sprint uphill for short distances.

Probably the closest I've come (from a weight distribution p.o.v.) was the time was carrying around 40 lbs or so of rocks in the (many) pockets of my flak jacket and cargo pants (don't ask). I kept up with everyone else just fine.

I actually think the restrictions on battle movement are the most unrealistic. Once you've developed the leg muscles for it, short sprints are not that effected by a weight you can lift. Neither is the all-day walk; the human gait is fairly efficient pendulum, and most of the "cost" of a forward step is recovered on the swing of the pendulum. It's really that middle ground (a half mile jog, say) that is most encumbered by weight.

Again, all IMO, but I think some of the 'costs' of armor are overstated in D&D, and I would not mind a system where heavier armor was the 'obvious' choice for melee combatants. That was simply the case historically, and armor did not fall out of favor until firearms became commonly available. The "dualist" so popular in D&D really only existed in "civilized" contexts and the post-firearms world. I think a heavy armor combatant is just "common sense" for someone who would be fighting orcs and monsters.
 


I'm not going to dispute anyone's personal experiences, but mine differ. I've done hikes with an extra 25 lbs and without, and I certainly notice the difference.
 

Kahuna Burger said:
I'm not going to dispute anyone's personal experiences, but mine differ. I've done hikes with an extra 25 lbs and without, and I certainly notice the difference.

Maybe they need to bring back the STR penalty for the ladies. :p
 

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