. . . while you're at it. . . Fix heavy armor!

[Gort]

Let's give the players interesting decisions: They can (a) have crap armor or (B) pay 20 gold more! Stupid, stupid, stupid. I cry on the inside whenever I look at the armor table.

Quite. However, a lot of the armour in the list (chain mail, scale mail, banded mail) was simply inferior to plate mail. As that video shows, plate mail doesn't really restrict mobility in any great way, as long as the wearer is used to it, so why would you wear lighter armour besides the cost, or if you want to sneak around?

If you're getting into a fight, you'd want to be wearing platemail. It's just common sense.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Since I am the guy in that video, what do you want to know about the armour's authenticity? I commissioned it as a copy of a late 15th century Italian harness (#B3) from the monastery of Santa Maria della Grazie, and now exhibited in the Ducal Palace in Mantova. IMO, the armourer (who is quite familiar with the suit, having examined it in person) did a pretty good job, keeping both the lines and weight near those of the original.

Very cool. Thanks for posting that video!

I don't have the experience to judge real medieval/renaissance armor from a modern "recreation" that might or might not be an authentic design, so it's good to know that it's an original design with proper construction -- helps make my point. It doesn't look like your mobility was impaired any more than in a set of modern ceramic body armor (with which I am quite familiar); in fact, I'd say your mobility is even better -- you'd certainly never see me turning cartwheels in IBA and an ACH.

What does the full suit weigh, by chance?

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

It doesn't look like your mobility was impaired any more than in a set of modern ceramic body armor (with which I am quite familiar); in fact, I'd say your mobility is even better -- you'd certainly never see me turning cartwheels in IBA and an ACH.

Not him can't answer weight

Agree with you on modern body armor, it's actually more restrictive than historic armor. Stops little bits of fast-moving metal fairly well but most modern designs could take a few important lessons from historical armor about weight distribution/articulation/and flexibility issues.

 

[Gloombunny]

Well-made plate armor doesn't restrict mobility very much. (Lower-quality heavy armor might, though.) The issue is more one of fatigue and heat. Wearing that stuff all day while spelunking and fighting zombies would be exhausting and extremely discomforting.

(On the other hand, it would also make you a lot more resistant to contemporary weapons than D&D models.)

 

[TwinBahamut]

I can't say I think anyone should point to Mike Mearls' Iron Heroes as an example of good implementation of heavy armor...

In Iron Heroes, only two classes can even use heavy armor (the Armiger and the Man at Arms), and the severe penalties for wearing heavy armor made wearing such armor a very poor choice. The only reason an Armiger can even function is because he treats heavy armor like it was medium or light armor. Also, the variable DR made armor unreliable, and the Armiger is practically beaten at his own role by a Berserker who has taken armor feats to improve his natural DR (armor beaten out by armor-hard skin).

That aside, I think that at the very least, the whole system of armor can be simplified and abstracted a bit. Instead of platemail, chainmail, half-plate, scalemail, banded mail, etc, there should probably just be no armor, light armor, medium armor, and heavy armor. The current situation, in which there are many types of armor for each category, seems to be a redundant choice, especially since there is just about a single viable option among each category. Also, it will free people up to describe their armor how they would prefer.

Also, it may be an odd desire, but I wouldn't mind seeing options that allow a character to wear forms of full plate which are heavy and strong far beyond what people in the real world would be able to function in. It would be a nice touch for those of us who like to see fighters who have super-human abilities.

 

[Irda Ranger]

I can't say I think anyone should point to Mike Mearls' Iron Heroes as an example of good implementation of heavy armor...

In Iron Heroes, only two classes can even use heavy armor (the Armiger and the Man at Arms), and the severe penalties for wearing heavy armor made wearing such armor a very poor choice. The only reason an Armiger can even function is because he treats heavy armor like it was medium or light armor. Also, the variable DR made armor unreliable, and the Armiger is practically beaten at his own role by a Berserker who has taken armor feats to improve his natural DR (armor beaten out by armor-hard skin).

Did you get that from reading the book, board discussions, or actual play with a no-changes Armiger?

The numbers in the book were off (admittedly, as playtesting has revealed), but that's easily fixed. The core concept is fine. Using tweaked DR and other rules (but not a rewrite), my straight-up Armiger is an extremely effective combatant, with different strengths and weaknesses relative to a same-level Berserker. Even if he doesn't deal the DPS to BBEG's the way a Berserker could, he has also survived several encounters that would have left a Berserker quite dead.

A 'serker would be really good mano-a-mano versus some big target, like a Hill Giant. Better off than I. The fight wouldn't last long enough, and the damage output of the giant too high, for the difference in HP and DR to matter. But my Armiger has a lot more stamina than he does, especially against more-but-smaller attacks. Just last week I saved the Spiritualist and Executioner (who were engaged in an Arcane contest) by luring a dozen drow assassins away from them; and taking them all down myself while losing only 2 pts of Con and less than 20% of my total HP. They had to stunt like crazy just to get past my active defenses, and even when they did my DR absorbed all or almost all of the damage they rolled. A Berserker in the same situation could have been in a lot of trouble.

 

[Andor]

Actually I think a big problem with Armour in 3e is the chain shirt. It's just too damm good. I generally see characters wear A) Nothing B) a Chain shirt or C) Full plate. Medium armour can go hang. losing 1/3rd your speed is too much to pay for a +1 to AC. The chain shirt didn't exist before 3e. Maybe it should go away for 4e.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Did you get that from reading the book, board discussions, or actual play with a no-changes Armiger?

The numbers in the book were off (admittedly, as playtesting has revealed), but that's easily fixed. The core concept is fine. Using tweaked DR and other rules (but not a rewrite), my straight-up Armiger is an extremely effective combatant, with different strengths and weaknesses relative to a same-level Berserker. Even if he doesn't deal the DPS to BBEG's the way a Berserker could, he has also survived several encounters that would have left a Berserker quite dead.

A 'serker would be really good mano-a-mano versus some big target, like a Hill Giant. Better off than I. The fight wouldn't last long enough, and the damage output of the giant too high, for the difference in HP and DR to matter. But my Armiger has a lot more stamina than he does, especially against more-but-smaller attacks. Just last week I saved the Spiritualist and Executioner (who were engaged in an Arcane contest) by luring a dozen drow assassins away from them; and taking them all down myself while losing only 2 pts of Con and less than 20% of my total HP. They had to stunt like crazy just to get past my active defenses, and even when they did my DR absorbed all or almost all of the damage they rolled. A Berserker in the same situation could have been in a lot of trouble.

You make a good argument for the Armiger being a a good, solid class, but I did not say otherwise in my post (at least, I didn't intend to), so I am confused about what you are getting at.

My main point was that heavy armor was made so restrictive that it is only worthwhile for a single class which dedicates itself to the concept. There is no conceptual or reason of balance that makes it necessary for heavy armor to be worthless for Hunters, Weapon Masters, or other classes (it has been a while, so I can't recall all of them), yet it is not even given to them as an option. Most classes can't even use medium armor, and the penalities for using medium armor are quite severe.

So, I guess I just disagree that the core concept behind heavy armor in Iron Heroes is sound.

Also, this experience comes from reading the book, running a one-shot with my brother playing as a by-the-book Armiger, and running a short-lived campaign that didn't use an armiger (or heavy armor at all).

 

[Lurks-no-More]

Heavy armor = full plate.
Medium armor = breastplate.

Anything else, and you're just not trying or you've got some mithril or something.
Who the heck thought that was a good system?

Let's give the players interesting decisions: They can (a) have crap armor or (B) pay 20 gold more! Stupid, stupid, stupid. I cry on the inside whenever I look at the armor table.

It's worlds better than the list in 2e, though, with such useless junk as ring mail, scale mail or brigandine cluttering it up.

 

[Roadkill101]

I’m in favor of a major revamp in the way armor works. I’m not a big fan of way the Armor = AC setup functions within the D&D game. Especially the way 3.x handled the Dex modifiers to AC, based on a suit of armor being classified as light, medium and heavy.

Ideally (for me) Armor would function primarily as DR and to a lesser extent modify the AC value. It would be broken down into three factors, piecemeal location, type and category.

Piecemeal locations would be;
• Breastplates are additional pieces of armor used to further protect the chest cavity and heart from the front.
• Greaves are additional pieces of armor used to protect the feet and legs. They are light, medium or heavy in nature.
o Light greaves are typically little more than soft leather with minimal reinforcement.
o Medium greaves are typically constructed of leather with further reinforcement by hardened leather and or metallic bands and strips.
o Heavy greaves are typically a hardened metallic shell overtop a leather lining.
• Helms are protection for the head. There are four types of helm.
o Skullcaps only protect the top of the head.
o Helms protect the top sides and back of the head, leaving the face open.
o Full helms include a gorget to provide protection for the throat but otherwise still leave the face unprotected.
o Great helms encase the entire head and neck; they include a gorget and a face visor.
• Shields are additional pieces of armor worn on the arm to help provide additional protection. There are five types of shield.
o Bucklers are very small shields used for the purpose of warding off blows from melee weapons. They are practically useless against missiles.
o Small shields are good for use against melee weapons. Their small size prevents them from being good missile catchers.
o Medium shields are good all purpose shields for use against melee weapons and missile fire.
o Large shields are best for use against missile fire but are also decent for use against melee weapons.
o Wall shields are great against missile fire but poor against melee weapons due to bulkiness of size (unless one is using a “shield bearer” charged with the employ of a wall shield).
• Torso is the primary body covering and is used to determine the armor type.
• Vambraces are additional pieces of armor used to protect the hands and arms. As greaves they are light, medium or heavy in nature.

Armor types are concerned with the construction of the armor and materials of which constructed from. The types of armor would be as follows;
• Light Leather armor is armor constructed of several layers of soft flexible leather sewn together. It also includes various padded or quilted armors of cloth used in a like manner.
• Heavy Leather armor is armor constructed of leather that has been hardened in some manner. Or it may include thick animal hides with fur.
• Lamellar armor is armor in which a hardened material has been attached to a base material such as leather or cloth. It encompasses such armors as ring, scale, splint and brigandine armors.
• Chain armor is the traditional mail of medieval Europe. It is constructed of a series of interlocking rings.
• Plate armor is any metallic armor that presents a solid or near solid surface area of metal.
Note: As presented the metallic materials would be some form of low grade steel as the norm, softer metals or materials would reduce DR while exotic or harder materials would increase DR, based upon location and type. Magical enhancements would likewise affect DR.

Armor categories would function as feats or class skills providing any modifiers to AC (including any magical enhancements) and would be of the following types;
• Light Armor consists of any combination of breastplate, helm, greaves and vambraces, or light leather armor.
• Med. Lt. Armor consists of heavy leather armor.
• Medium Armor consists of lamellar armor.
• Med. Hvy. Armor consists of chain armor.
• Heavy Armor consists of plate armor.
• Extra heavy Armor consists of any armor combination where the category of the armor skill has been increased through additional armors, see the Note below.
• Shields allow a creature to effectively use all manner of shields for defensive and offensive purposes. This skill is easily able to be divided into more specific skills based upon the type of shield(s) to be used.
Note: Adding a breastplate to any other armor type will increase the armor to the next higher armor category. Likewise the addition of heavy greaves and vambraces, both, to any armor type will increase the armor to the next higher armor category.

I'd throw out the effect armor has on speed and base it (speed) upon size.

I'd make AC primarily a function of "Defense Points" which would be based upon Class Level, where the Class Role was an included factor.