Whiney players....

[Raven Crowking]

And there it is, the dirty little secret truth that underlies all of the "worst DM" posts. In both this and another thread I posted several different ways that while I listen to player complaints and frustrations, I don't listen or tolerate whining in any form... and I got repeatedly rebuked for that position. There are people who want to whine, and they want it allowed at all costs, and so they defend fellow whiners as vehemently as possible. Forget the real issues, forget the OP scenario, they really just want to defend being whiney. OK, defend away, you will still get booted from my games. Be mature, be civil, or be gone.

Exactly.

And let me save you some response time, I am the worst DM ever, you would hate my game, you would hate my style, I am always wrong, etc. Fortunately there are many bad players in my area that want just that in a DM so I stay pretty busy.

Nail on the head, my friend. Nail on the head.

RC

 

[Doug McCrae]

Many people seem to believe that DPS (DPR?) = worth of character.

People like metrics. Damage dealt is a clear numerical measure of a character's worth, or contribution, to the team's combat effort. All else being equal, if PC A is consistently dealing 50 pts a round and PC B is dealing 10, then PC B is looking pretty feeble by comparison.

Difficulty arises because there are a lot of non-damage contributions a PC can make such as buffs, debuffs, healing and save-or-dies. But to some extent it might be possible to convert these to damage. For example if a wizard takes out three 70hp foes with a SoD in one round, we could count this as 3*70 = 210 pts of contribution. One could calculate the amount of extra damage dealt due to a bard's inspire courage or a wizard's haste (a heckuva lot in the latter case). You could even do the same for defensive buffs like a druid's barkskin. Calculate how much longer the recipient will stay up thanks to the higher ac, work out how much more damage is dealt as a result and you have a metric for measuring the contribution of barkskin. The same can be done with in combat healing.

We can by this system calculate the worth of Aid Another incidentally. Plus 2 to hit, best case scenario, converts to 4 hit points of damage when Power Attacking with a 2h weapon. Not too bad at 1st level, but progressively worse and worse as you go up levels because the expected damage becomes so much higher.

Defence is important because if your character goes down because of a lack of hit points, armour class or saves, he's not dealing damage any more. This is the problem with the barbarian imo - poor AC and poor will save. (Plus rage just tends to get you killed when it wears off.) The extra hit points aren't enough to make up for it. I currently play a warblade and he's much more effective in melee than a barbarian would be, mostly due to the lack of weaknesses.

 

[DonTadow]

I think you miss the point. The exmaple was: I have no fun fighting undead and using alchemy. Got that? I do not want to be creative if I do not want to fight undead in the first place.

Or, to put it in an example you may understand better: If you want to play a D&D paladin, and your DM runs a bunnies & burrows adventure, polymorphing your character in a bunny at the start, should you get creative, or say "I want to play D&D, not B&B"?

Is that so difficult to get? I want to have fun in a game, and some things and adventures are no fun at all. I don't want to get creative and adapt to such, I want to avoid it.

So, if a DM wants to run Ravenloft, and an undead campaign, I'll simply say "not my taste", and leave.

So you're comparing a natural occurance in dungeons to a the DM rail roading your character. Nice. But two different things. Again , just like the monopoly thing. The first option leaves you, the player, many options, many options other than just alchemy. The second polymorphing example is the DM railroading and changing the character you built. It is the DM's fault if your character is useless because you had nothing to do with this character. HOwever, in the first example it is your fault if, with all the skills, items and feats in 3e, that you made a useless character whose only trick is sneak attack.

You are obviously a pretty close minded player. It is either all or nothing with you. Either your wizard casts spells in battle or he's useless. Tell me, does your wizard get all suicidial when he runs out of spells for the day?

My mom used to tell me something, and I'm going to share it with you. There would be times that I wanted a specific toy, and she would take it because i was bad, and I"d have to play with something else and I'd whine about it because all i could concentrate on was the toy i wanted. Sure the toy i had wasn't he man, but it was still fun. I still could have fun with it if i tried.

so she'd say, "You aren't trying to have fun". And that's your problem. the minute you hear undead you sit, pout and fold your arms and don't even try to have fun. If you don't like alchemy do something else. Why are you playing the game like you're limited to four buttons.

 

[Raven Crowking]

People like metrics. Damage dealt is a clear numerical measure of a character's worth, or contribution, to the team's combat effort.

And, because combats in 3e take so much longer than in any previous edition, players learn to judge their value by their contribution to combat.

The writers of 4e seem to think that an extended "non-combat resolution system" is necessary to make non-combat actions equally important. In reality, all that is required is that combats themselves are handled more rapidly.

RC

 

[Doug McCrae]

In both this and another thread I posted several different ways that while I listen to player complaints and frustrations, I don't listen or tolerate whining in any form

What's the difference?

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

DonTadow - Please don't attribute someone's difference of opinion to a lack of imagination or close-mindedness.

 

[Raven Crowking]

What's the difference?

Complaint: In general use, a complaint is an expression of displeasure, such as poor service at a store, or from a local government, etc. ...

Whining: Habitually complaining; "a whining child"

Within the context of a D&D game, a complaint is generally given as between equals, with a reasonable amount of respect, is short, and is not intended to disrupt play. OTOH, the purpose of whining is frequently to disrupt play, essentially trying to hold the rest of the game hostage to the whims of the person so behaving.


RC

 

[haakon1]

So you prefer a DM to present you with cookie cutter dungeons to make everyone feel good about themselves?

I don't play that game.

I create challenges for the players. A challenge can "seem" dire some times.

Nod. I'm reminded of a lot of other conversations here, about WOTC nerfing the game in 3e by trying to ensure only challenges that PC's can overcome and treasure welfare by level, etc. Basically, the argument is D&D was created to be a bit difficult, with a chance of failure and some true challenges, but WOTC has been trying to ensure the players always win.

Gygax said something about if you can't abide danger to your character, maybe you should go play Candyland with your little sister instead.

Somebody else said the true essence of D&D is when you're down to a few hit points and looking through your character sheet trying to figure out how to save the party with some iron rations and a pint of oil. I agree that's "what is best in life". Other folks think it's something else . . . damage done or builds in action, I guess.

Seems there's many ways to play this game.

 

[Gothmog]

And there it is, the dirty little secret truth that underlies all of the "worst DM" posts. In both this and another thread I posted several different ways that while I listen to player complaints and frustrations, I don't listen or tolerate whining in any form... and I got repeatedly rebuked for that position. There are people who want to whine, and they want it allowed at all costs, and so they defend fellow whiners as vehemently as possible. Forget the real issues, forget the OP scenario, they really just want to defend being whiney. OK, defend away, you will still get booted from my games. Be mature, be civil, or be gone.

And let me save you some response time, I am the worst DM ever, you would hate my game, you would hate my style, I am always wrong, etc. Fortunately there are many bad players in my area that want just that in a DM so I stay pretty busy.

Cougent, you just went and sucked all the fun out of this thread by being so right. I tried to state the same thing earlier, just more diplomatically. Congrats my friend- you won the thread!

 

[noretoc]

I think the OP might have been trolling. IMO anyone who come here saying "My player was whining because I threw a encounter that was way too high for them, then had my npc save them" and "He was complaining because I put in monsters that he could do nothing against" is looking to have people start fighting. Either that or the dude really dosen't read any posts here ever. Anyone should know better than to post that, unless you WANT people getting on you.

Just my opinon.