Whiney players....

[Raven Crowking]

Or maybe they want to present a resolution system that isn't "the DM decides."

Excepting, of course, that what we have been presented so far is "the player rolls a lot of dice, and the DM decides".

RC

 

[evilbob]

In my experience, it often happens like this:

That is seriously your experience? Because that is horrible - you need to find a better group of people to game with. I mean, both sides have some fault to them but the player (assuming W is the same as A in that example) is behaving especially poorly.

Especially the "dice fly across the room" bit - if I saw anyone do that I would excuse myself from the game.

 

[Fenes]

That is seriously your experience? Because that is horrible - you need to find a better group of people to game with. I mean, both sides have some fault to them but the player (assuming W is the same as A in that example) is behaving especially poorly.

Especially the "dice fly across the room" bit - if I saw anyone do that I would excuse myself from the game.

I took the quoted example to make a point - the point being that sometimes, a DM either has to change, or tell the player straight away he'd better leave since nothing will change. Not dismiss a complaint as whining after ignoring it.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I took the quoted example to make a point - the point being that sometimes, a DM either has to change, or tell the player straight away he'd better leave since nothing will change. Not dismiss a complaint as whining after ignoring it.

If that was your point, then no one has been arguing with it AFAICT. I haven't seen anyone say "Don't talk to your players" or "Don't take their complaints seriously." Nor have I seen anyone say "If things aren't going to change, hide that from the player, and keep on keeping on!"

Indeed, all of the advice I've read, from anyone, on this thread, seems to boil down to (1) communicate with your players, and (2) at some point, something's gotta give.

The only disagreement I am aware of is that we differ at what point, and what has to give.

RC

 

[Fenes]

My other point is that even if someone is whining - and definitions of what qualifies as whining vary - his complaints are not invalidated by that.

 

[Raven Crowking]

My other point is that even if someone is whining - and definitions of what qualifies as whining vary - his complaints are not invalidated by that.

Of course not. Which is why, for example, I advised the OP to speak with his other players.

However, I also argued (as did others) that while there may be a real problem -- and definitions of what qualifies as a real problem vary -- his whining is not made valid by that.

If there is a real problem, and mature behaviour cannot fix it, you can be fairly certain that whining will not fix it, either. If speaking calmly and reasonably to the DM doesn't help, you should simply leave the game.

Even if there is a real problem, but the player makes no attempt to deal with it maturely, you as a DM should not have to tolerate whining. If speaking calmly and reasonably to the player doesn't help, you should ask that player to leave the game. And, yes, "ask" is a euphemism here.

Simply because you don't have to tolerate whining, it does not imply that you should not consider potential problems that said whining might have uncovered. Ultimately, though, there is a great deal of spread in potential playstyles, and just because one person believes something to be a problem doesn't mean it is. You should try to examine it honestly, but should not feel that you have to change your playstyle unless you want to.

(It is also a given that, in some cases, this will mean that you have no players, and you might therefore be forced to reexamine what you really want if you want to DM in a more than theoretical sense.)


RC

 

[DonTadow]

But I really think too many people focus on the "whining" part, and not on the part that one player, for whatever reason there is, is not having fun in the game. And that means something is wrong. (And yes, if the personalities of the two involved people won't mesh well together, splitting seems the best option.)

Still sounds like the fault of the player. People havea tendancy to want to blame everyone but themselves. Unless the DM is not communicating with you, I can't see why the DM is at fault.

If I as a dM tell you this is a low magic campaign, and that there are lots of antimagic zones in the world, why on earth would you set your heart on playing an uber wizard?

If this is just one adventure, and you know ahead of time where you are going, why did your character not better prepare?

I can't think of one instance where I felt a pc or npc i built was helpless, and I"ve been in some pretty lopsided battles. If you are set on playing your character one way without any creativity, you are limiting your own experience and fun of dungeons and dragons, not the DM.

 

[Arnwyn]

But I really think too many people focus on the "whining" part, and not on the part that one player, for whatever reason there is, is not having fun in the game. And that means something is wrong. (And yes, if the personalities of the two involved people won't mesh well together, splitting seems the best option.)

Of course that was the focus, because that's the right thing to do in the context of the OP. The problem was constant "whining" by one particular player, when no other players were complaining. Those who focused on the "whining" part were correct in doing so. Slagging the DM, even after he clarified his points, was not only unproductive, it was wrong.

As for the whiny player's possible issues with the game, that was long since dealt with in Raven Crowking's posts - among other peoples' - that suggested to talk to the player to determine what he likes and if that's a good fit for the game (and not go on about how "bad" those encounters supposedly were - even after clarification by the OP. I don't think we want cougent's post to become eerily predictive, now do we?).

 

[Fenes]

Of course that was the focus, because that's the right thing to do in the context of the OP. The problem was constant "whining" by one particular player, when no other players were complaining. Those who focused on the "whining" part were correct in doing so. Slagging the DM, even after he clarified his points, was not only unproductive, it was wrong.

And that's my point - the important issue is that a player is not happy. Whining is a symptom, not the core issue.

 

[Raven Crowking]

And that's my point - the important issue is that a player is not happy. Whining is a symptom, not the core issue.

The core issue as that two people at that table aren't happy. One is doing his best to make everyone happy; the other is doing his best to make everyone else as unhappy as he is. If you think the second is in the right......well, colour me confused.



RC