Whiney players....

[White Whale]

I don't think anyone has behaved as a jerk, no more than the OP anyway.

The first post consists of several examples of badly balanced encounters, which most people pointed out. When confronted with this the OP tries to justify these examples by saying that 'they are important to the story'. More, the 'multiple iron golems guarding spots throughout the dungeon' and 'undead with high SR' mysteriously turn into just two golems. Then, when several posters question the new modified story, the OP becomes aggressive.

It is clear that Slaygrim takes no criticism and blames all the problems on the 'whiney' player; he never admits that the player in question may have a legitimate reason for complaining, even in the flawed examples in the first post.

 

[Felix]

I know you are being sarcastic but I am going to answer seriously. There is a reason so many people are going to Circvs Maximvs and say they don't come her as often or at all. One of the reason is stuff like this where you just have to swallow and swallow someone behaving like a jerk and not being allowed to tell them look you are being a jerk.

The people who do this may not be actually breaking the rules but they are breaking the spirit of the rules.

There are also rules against calling someone out on the tone of their post in a post (the accepted remedy being to notify a moderator), so I can understand why you haven't accused anyone by name. But I think this comes as close to an accusation as one can without crossing that particular line. There also exists an "Email Member" option for this kind of situation; perhaps it is an option you may want to pursue.

Sort of a, "finish this conversation outside" kind of solution.

Anyway, it's available if there's anything you wish to articulate.

 

[jdrakeh]

Ignoring your problems makes them go away, right? Right? Bueller?

On message boards? Yes. Yes, it does.

 

[cougent]

In my experience, it often happens like this:

DM makes a call, any call, pick one that you like... lets say a Psionic attack that has no effect on the critter.
Player A: Huh? What do you mean it has no effect? I am pretty sure it DOES have an effect, I just re-read that right before the game tonight and I really think you are wrong on that call.
DM: I don't think so, but we can check it later to make sure. For now my call stands
Player A (frustrated even more now): Lets check it now, I really think I am right on this one, I especially prepared this attack just for a situation like this and now if you rule it down it will just blow it all to pieces!
DM: Who has next initiative?
Player W: What the F***? that's total BS! This is just like last week when you screwed me over on the Iron Golem thing, I prepared this attack just for a situation just like this and your screwing it all up. If John was the freakin wizard you wouldn't pull this crap, your just doing this to me, you suck! (dice fly across room)
DM: Stop whining! I made my call, I won't hold up the game for this, we can check later!

I hope you are a player in that scenario?
There can be whiny DM's as well, and I would not tolerate that as a player just as I don't tolerate whiny players as a DM. I got over being 9 when I was, well 9. I have no desire to relive it now in my 40's from either side of the screen.

My other point is that even if someone is whining - and definitions of what qualifies as whining vary - his complaints are not invalidated by that.

And here we will have to agree to disagree, because whining to me DOES in fact invalidate any point you wanted to make. Whining is not an acceptable form of communication to expressing anything to me.

And that's my point - the important issue is that a player is not happy. Whining is a symptom, not the core issue.

And even as the "ogre DM" that I am, I would want to resolve that; if possible within reason.

 

[Elf Witch]

There are also rules against calling someone out on the tone of their post in a post (the accepted remedy being to notify a moderator), so I can understand why you haven't accused anyone by name. But I think this comes as close to an accusation as one can without crossing that particular line. There also exists an "Email Member" option for this kind of situation; perhaps it is an option you may want to pursue.

Sort of a, "finish this conversation outside" kind of solution.

Anyway, it's available if there's anything you wish to articulate.

I am aware that there are these options and I am very careful to walk away from my computer when I start to get mad. Which is why I have never been banned because believe me I have wanted to say somethings.

Slaygrim would have been smart to do what you suggested either that or put the person on ignore. Ignore is a great tool.


But it does not change the fact that there are posters who seem to go out of their way grind a point home. They have certain issues that if brought up they just can't see past their own blind spot. And with some of these people there is no way of communicating with them they can't see any other side.

I find it sad that we have lost some good people who used to add to intelllegent conversation over here because they are no longer willing to deal with some of these passive aggressive BS that sometimes goes on over here.

 

[Elf Witch]

And my point is that there are two points, which have to be treated seperately.

There's the whining, and there's the fact that a player has no fun. Simply stating "the player is whining, so he's wrong" is not correct. One has to check if one could make the campaign better suited to said players wishes without ruining it for the DM and the rest of the players. And one has to check if the player can stop whining - or, if it even is whining. (Of course, said complaining/whining can be a cause for making the game unfun for the DM or the rest of the players, so that has to be taken into consideration as well.)

But I really think too many people focus on the "whining" part, and not on the part that one player, for whatever reason there is, is not having fun in the game. And that means something is wrong. (And yes, if the personalities of the two involved people won't mesh well together, splitting seems the best option.)

The reason I focused on the whining part was that it did not seem like the player from the OP description was willing to do anything other then whine.

I do agree that whining is just a symptom of a greater problem.

If you have a problem with something in the game don't just go to your DM and complain yes let him know what the problem is but it would also be helpful to have some suggestions on how to make it better.

This player is also a DM. I do think that may be a big part of the problem some DMs are not good players they just don't like the lack of control they have as a player. But as a DM instead of just complaining this encounter is to hard ,this encounter is to easy he could give advice to the DM to make the game better.

I think what would have been more helpful to the OP when he came here for help was instead of back seating DMing and telling him that he was a bad DM and the player was right to whine.

It would have been more helpful to suggest ways to talk to the player. To point out that while the whining was annoying the player was unhappy and had he talked to the player.

I don't think he got help here what he got instead was a lot of people who have not sat at his game telling him he was a bad DM frustrating him to the point by harping on things that he kept trying to clairfy that he lost it and got banned.

 

[jezter6]

Gaming anymore has become much more complicated since we were kids. I don't remember having ANY of these "I'm not in the spotlight" issues playing D&D. I can't believe that, as adults, we're suddenly more prone to act like the kids many of us were when we started playing. It's all "ME ME ME" anymore with everyone (DM's and Players), and it's actually quite disturbing.

It's like growing up - in reverse. As people are beginning to whine and act like kids around the table (and on the forums), they are acting less and less like the kids who sat around a gaming table pounding mountain dew and cheetos till 4 in the morning just having a good time playing a game. It's now all about social contracts and the like. Which one of you lawyers brought that from the office to the gaming table?

As for something thread useful (or rather, just closely related):

I remember a campaign I played in during high school. I had just moved to a new town, so I jumped into the first gaming group I could find. It was obvious that the group had been together for a long time, and they were all friends and almost 5-10 years older than myself. I joined up and they allowed me to bring in my PC from my last game (with a few modifications to make him 'FR compliant' as opposed to my old DM's homebrew world).

A few sessions in, I got the picture of the story arc. The DM's best friend was the whole point of the game. That PC's survival was necessary to the overall story. Now, 90% of you would immediately jump from this game and probably whine about how crappy the DM was.

I played in this campaign for 5+ years as the buffing cleric - and had a BLAST doing it. He was nerfed, nearly killed, killed, resurrected, turned into a female - many times, and we had fun. I had fun. That's what mattered. I played 3rd fiddle (one of the other players came 2nd). I had my moments of shine, plenty of heroic moments, and could let the 'main player' have his moments more often than me.

 

[DonTadow]

Gaming anymore has become much more complicated since we were kids. I don't remember having ANY of these "I'm not in the spotlight" issues playing D&D. I can't believe that, as adults, we're suddenly more prone to act like the kids many of us were when we started playing. It's all "ME ME ME" anymore with everyone (DM's and Players), and it's actually quite disturbing.

It's like growing up - in reverse. As people are beginning to whine and act like kids around the table (and on the forums), they are acting less and less like the kids who sat around a gaming table pounding mountain dew and cheetos till 4 in the morning just having a good time playing a game. It's now all about social contracts and the like. Which one of you lawyers brought that from the office to the gaming table?

As for something thread useful (or rather, just closely related):

I remember a campaign I played in during high school. I had just moved to a new town, so I jumped into the first gaming group I could find. It was obvious that the group had been together for a long time, and they were all friends and almost 5-10 years older than myself. I joined up and they allowed me to bring in my PC from my last game (with a few modifications to make him 'FR compliant' as opposed to my old DM's homebrew world).

A few sessions in, I got the picture of the story arc. The DM's best friend was the whole point of the game. That PC's survival was necessary to the overall story. Now, 90% of you would immediately jump from this game and probably whine about how crappy the DM was.

I played in this campaign for 5+ years as the buffing cleric - and had a BLAST doing it. He was nerfed, nearly killed, killed, resurrected, turned into a female - many times, and we had fun. I had fun. That's what mattered. I played 3rd fiddle (one of the other players came 2nd). I had my moments of shine, plenty of heroic moments, and could let the 'main player' have his moments more often than me.

My first couple of games were very much like that as well. The story was about this guy who had these five pieces of demonic armor he had to look for. But only this particular PC could wear them. The campaign lasted two years, and I played the buffying cleric who was always in trouble with his god. The other pcs and i were just support for his plots but we had a great time doing it. I don't think I ever got a storyline, but i still had fun.

 

[Greylock]

A few sessions in, I got the picture of the story arc. The DM's best friend was the whole point of the game. That PC's survival was necessary to the overall story. Now, 90% of you would immediately jump from this game and probably whine about how crappy the DM was.

No. I would just leave the game. No snarks. No whinges. Finish the session, be nice, then a few days on, send a polite email withdrawing from the game that doesn't mention any problems, just polite regret.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I've read this entire thread.

For me, the crucial point is that nobody likes a whiner. It doesn't matter whether the complaints are justified or not. If there's a complaint, make it short, to the point, and state it calmly. Do not whine. When you whine, everybody just wishes that you would shut up and looks upon you with secret contempt.

I recall a game session I was in a couple of years ago. The characters were up against an encounter way too tough for us, and we had to make a fighting retreat. One PC went down, and the player immediately started whining about how the encounter had been too tough, how he hated to lose his PC, how the whole thing was unfair.

In the end, his PC was rescued but my PC got killed trying to hold the retreat and dragged away to be eaten by Barghasts. I was sure frustrated, but I remained calm and remembered it was just a game and made myself look like a cool guy by comparison.

In the after-game review session, I noted that the encounter had been tough and the PCs hadn't really had a chance to avoid it. The DM admitted she had made some mistakes. Everybody voiced their frustrations in an adult manner and it was fine.

Nobody likes a whiner, whether their complaint is justified or not.