Whiney players....

Gothmog said:
However, I do agree that a DMPC who is substantially more powerful than the group coming in repeatedly to bail them out or show off his power is obnoxious. I've been in that situation before, and its no fun. This doesn't seem to be the case here though.

I don't see the fun in having a NPC, DMPC or not, whose five levels higher than them, taking an active role in a fight. If the PCs do something stupid, it can be justifiable, especially in a town where the town guard is likely to show up. But planning it that way?

Even with the NPC, it looks like a difficult battle; the odds that the PCs could make a difference if the situation isn't completely nerfed towards them is pretty darn low.

How about using some conjurations that don't rely on SR against the undead?

Okay, it's obvious that the player could have handled things better. There are, however, questions on the table about whether the player had the warning that he needed to get conjurations or other spells for this adventure, or if he was thrown into this without warning.

And how much an adventure should change to match the characters is an open question. To some extent, the argument for this dungeon is an argument for realism over player fun. Most players want to play the character they created, and very few are happy if they're forced into situations where they can't. How flexible the players and characters are, and how much they enjoy adapting to situations that get in the way of playing the character as envisioned, is a player and game style issue that doesn't have one great answer.

From the way the OP described things, this was the first time or locale this had happened.

If the way you give a hint to a player that his character needs diversifying is by forcing him to set through an entire adventure with nothing to do, then no wonder he's upset.

The point is the guy built a blaster wizard- a complete one-trick pony.

I don't see it as more of a one-trick pony than most fighters are. I've always found myself moving towards blaster spells when playing a wizard, if just because that seems to be the easiest way to make a difference in battle and have more fun. In any case, we don't know that he built a blaster wizard; we know nothing about his spell selection.

I've got to wonder about this dungeon; was it fun for anyone but the DM? I mean, hey, look, it's a iron golem, AGAIN, doesn't strike me as very fun for anyone. I assume there were traps in there for the rogue, who can't backstab anything in the dungeon, but it sounds like a big round of buff the fighter, watch the fighter destroy the golem, sleep to recover spells, repeat.
 

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DestroyYouAlot said:
Re: Your crappy player...
I'm trying hard not to comment any more in this thread, but I just wanted to say that I completely agree with this post.

OP: Also, from your description, it sounds like it's not necessarily the "playing style" that's a conflict here (although that may also be the case): it's that your player should have rolled a barbarian. I.e. you have a guy who's madly in love with DPS and considers anything else to be crap. Personally, I really dislike players who spend tons of time helping and buffing and playing an amazing support role who then turn around and complain that they didn't "do" anything in the battle. Some people equate "doing anything" with "doing damage" - and nothing else. That can really get frustrating for both the player and the GM.
 

Slaygrim said:
If faced with an opponant or battle that appears too tough for him, he will whine saying it's too strong of a battle and that there is no way his character would fight this battle. Such as recently, the party is 4 10th level characters and they had to battle a 19th level wizard, a 16th level sorcerer, a 15th level wizard, a beholder, and a runic guardian.

How do the players know its a 15th level wizard and a 19th level sorcerer ? Unless they've actually seen him cast some 9th level spell and it wasn't obviously from a magic item, they shouldn't know more than "two powerful spellcasters".

But yeah, that sounds fairly whiny. I'd love to hear what would happen if the character actually died.
 

I'd agree with the "whiny" player here, at the very least on the first battle mentioned. Quite simply, the 19th-level wizard and 16th-level sorcerer should have been able to decimate the party all at once - even if just because of the wizard having 9th-level spells - and that's not even counting the beholder, a monster chock-full of abilities that are basically save-or-die (or get coup de graced, or so on). If played realistically, for a 10th-level party (even with the 15th-level wizard helping), that's a slaughter, not a battle.

My character wouldn't fight in a combat like that, either, unless (a) too stupid to realize the odds, or (b) extraordinarily dedicated to his party members, enough to follow them into almost certain death. Most of my PCs haven't qualified for A or B.
 

darthkilmor said:
How do the players know its a 15th level wizard and a 19th level sorcerer ? Unless they've actually seen him cast some 9th level spell and it wasn't obviously from a magic item, they shouldn't know more than "two powerful spellcasters".

Wouldn't they not knowing be worse actually? Since the first warning they'd have is when the 19th lv wizard hit them with "Wail of the Banshee" with a dc none of them were able to make?
 

Oh, wow, we're really picking on the poor OP, aren't we?

To the OP: Yeah, a whiny player can be a pain in the butt. I've had players that have thrown tantrums, left the room crying (yeah, CRYING - back when we were fifteen, believe it or not!), and get sulky when their characters died (or even when their characters didn't get to be the one to do the really cool maneuver). But whiny players are a whole different problem.

However, in most cases, this behaviour just doesn't instantly appear. Quite often, it appears because it's a way for the player to passive-aggressively bring up a problem they have with your game, without actually having to speak to you about it.

When I play, if I get to an encounter I really don't like (ie, if my rogue encounters his seventh construct in a row, or if a GM describes a vivid rape scene - I'm against that sort of stuff in play, btw-, or if the GM lets the fighter disarm the trap because he happens to like the player of hte fighter more), I tend to adopt certain poses. I might become overly quiet, offering minimal responses to questions. If there is a really graphic torture/rape/naziesque scene playing out, and the GM asks for my action, I'll try to do something that will take my character (and thus, me) out of the encounter while still trying to help out my companions - I might buff allies, for example.

The point of this is, if I don't like where the GM is going, I try to point it out through my behaviour. And if the GM doesn't get the hint, I bring it up in a face to face only as a last resort. A lot of people don't like having to talk to their GM - often someone who has spent HOURS prepping material - and telling them that they're not enjoying part of their GM's game. In fact, no player has ever done this with me, even though I'm sure I've had bored players at my table in the past.

On the plus side for you, the players are coming back. That means that they like your game at least enough to put some effort into playing it. The way I read it, it seems as if your whiny player is adopting this tactic as a way to suggest to you what he finds wrong with your game. Personally, just take him aside and ask him what you could do to make the game more enjoyable for him.

As it stands, it almost seems like you're saying "he should just enjoy my game the way it is!". You're not doing everything right (as some other posters seem to enjoy pointing out), just like your player.

By the way, I actually had a very similar encounter to yours about two years back, only I was on the whiny players' side.

We had a group of three players (one of whom played two characters). Our group consisted of a 4th level Cleric, a 3rd level Scout, a 4th level Spellthief, and a 4th level Monk. We were not the best group out there, but we had fun.

The first parts of the campaign went great - while the fairly new GM made a few mistakes, they weren't so big as to make the game annoying to us. But, around the time we hit 4th level, things started getting bad.

First, he described a rape scene in disturbingly vivid detail, and seemed to be chuckling while he did it. Now, I really don't like that sort of stuff in my games (As I said above), but the other two players liked the idea of being heroes and saving the day. And, since the rape was taking place in a burning village, I occupied myself by rescuing villagers while my companions were suitably heroic. But, I was pretty quiet through the whole encounter, hoping the GM would pick up my cues that I didn't enjoy this encounter.

He didn't. The other two players did, though.

Then, we get shoehorned into an adventure we don't want to take, because it goes against our goals, and because it was a fight against ogres, and we knew very well our group couldn't handle it. But, trust the GM, and all that jazz.

Along the way, we pick up a group of 4 6th level characters, all fairly well-made NPCs (I think they were a perfectly balanced adventuring party). These allies of ours start taking the lead, so that we were basically following them on our mission.

IN fact, the first fight, the players sat back for most of it and watched the GM roll actions for the ten tough bugbears we were fighting, as well as the four adventurers, while our group took on a few hobgoblins.

It wasn't until I humbly suggested that the players could probably run the NPC allies that the game sped up a bit, and we had a bit of a say in the game. But it still kind of sucked to watch our 4th level PCs doing little.

All of us were looking bored at this point. Our shoulders were slumped. My friend kept staring into space. My brother was reading through rulebooks, and putting together a new PC. I did that thing where you roll dice, and doodle on your character sheet. But the GM, rather than noticing our cues, plowed on with his adventure as planned.

Long story short, we came across a fight against three ogres. With class levels. We ran the fight, and at least at first, we were excited about it. After all, this would be a chance to actually DO something.

Until the ogre, with one swing of his club, killed one of the 6th level characters in one hit. And another 6th level character was gone the next round. Our 4th level Cleric was killed in one hit when he got close to an ogre; that same ogre knocked the monk into negatives immediately after, thanks to his cleave feat.

My spellthief and the scout tried to flank the ogres using a network of caves nearby, while the ogres chewed through those 6th level NPCs. And then we just sort of... gave up.

We never played with that guy as GM again. He's welcome at my table, but if he ever offers to run a game, I'll say "sure, maybe next month or something" and then pretend I forgot.

The moral of this is simple: he's probably "Whining" because he DOESN'T like your game right now, but likes it enough that he doesn't want to quit. And something tells me you missed earlier, subtler signs that he isn't having fun.

In the end, think of this: why are you running a game? Ideally, you should be running a game so that you and your players have fun, together. Now, take a look at your story:

* Are you having fun? Probably not. You have to deal with a whining player, and your actions (putting the player in situations where his character is completely useless, all to kowtow to what is "realistic" in your preconceived plot) are directly causing this player to complain.
* Are your players having fun? Doesn't sound like it, for the most part.

I guess I'm just saying, in a very roundabout way (gimme a break, it's 3:30 am right now, and I'm sick!) that maybe you should listen to what the player is saying, instead of just complaining about him online.
 

My real problem with this player isn't that he doesn't have some valid points- he does. Its the method in which he's chosen to express himself- namely being a whiny, passive-aggressive jackass.

Yes, the encounter with the 19th level wizard and his bunch was a little over the top, and I can see how it would be frustrating to wonder "how the hell are we going to get out of this?!?!?!" But the best way to handle it would be to talk to the DM outside the game, and address it something like this:

"Hey, I had a concern that the fight with the really powerful wizard was way beyond our abilities, and it made me feel hopeless and really inconsequential that we got put up against something so far beyond our abilities. I know it might have been part of the plot for the adventure to include this guy, but for our group combat probably wasn't the best option, and using a higher-level PC to even the odds kinda minimalized our choices and importance. Maybe in the future, give us a little more more options in the way we handle this kind of thing."

Thats a perfectly reasonable response that addresses the player's concerns, and a MUCH more mature way to handle it. Most DMs I've played with wouldn't be offended by someone making a rational case like this, and would listen to the player. But when he started whining something like:

"OMG! Don't you know the DMG sayz you are not supposed to have such tough opponents for us? I am suppozed to Roxxorz! ROAR! This isn't FAIR! You suxxor as a DM because you don't follow RAW!"

Any DM that heard that would shut down the logical part of his brain and would be justified in asking the player if he soiled his diaper. I hope everyone here can see the differnce in how this was handled. Whining is horribly immature, and only serves to set everyone against you. Playing passive-aggressive head games instead of calmly and logically explaining your position also compromises any integrity you have to your arguement.

I've dealt with players like this on four separate occasions before- three times as a fellow player, once as a DM. EVERY single time they are annoying and being selfish, extremely immature jerks. The three separate times I was a player and another player did this, that player in question was a glory hog, HAD to be the center of attetion, HAD to be the much-loved and admired hero, and would throw temper tantrums if anything didn't go their way, often citing rules or "fairness" as their objection, when it was in fact due to their own egotistical personality traits. We put up with the players for 5 or 6 sessions each time, trying to calm them down and hoping they would work with the rest of the group and try to have fun, but none of the three people did. We ended up kicking them out of the group each time (usually amidst much drama, temper tantrums, and in one case CRYING).

The time I was DM and someone tried this, I pulled him aside immediately after a temper tantrum (involving not being able to do full damage with his spells to a creature that had immunity to certain types of attacks, and I was nerfing his character), and explained if he has a problem to take it up with me outside the game. He grumbled, but agreed. Two hours later, he threw a hissy fit again about failing a save where he missed it by 1, and screamed it wasn't fair, I was a "s***ty" DM for making the encouter too hard, threw some dice, blah blah blah. The other players got visibly uncomfortable, and one of them them gave me the finger across the throat sign. I stopped the game, got up, went over to him and told him to leave and never come back. He proceeded to throw another tempter tantrum, kicked doors, etc on his way out- good riddance. My gaming time is too precious to spend it coddling immature jerks like that. And remember, no gaming is better than horrendously bad gaming like that.
 
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Gothmog said:
Yes, the encounter with the 19th level wizard and his bunch was a little over the top, and I can see how it would be frustrating to wonder "how the hell are we going to get out of this?!?!?!" But the best way to handle it would be to talk to the DM outside the game, and address it something like this:

"Hey, I had a concern that the fight with the really powerful wizard was way beyond our abilities, and it made me feel hopeless and really inconsequential that we got put up against something so far beyond our abilities. I know it might have been part of the plot for the adventure to include this guy, but for our group combat probably wasn't the best option, and using a higher-level PC to even the odds kinda minimalized our choices and importance. Maybe in the future, give us a little more more options in the way we handle this kind of thing."
What if he had reacted in-character?
"We've heard about this guy, right? We know he's the most powerful archmage alive, AND he has a beholder, a guardian construct, and two more allies? I conclude that we have no reasonable chance of survival. I grab the two nearest PCs and Teleport out of here."

No whining, no arguing, just acting in character and derailing the DM's plans. Is that better? Many DMs WISH their players would know enough to retreat from overwhelming odds instead of assuming "We're the PCs, we'll always win."
 

I once had a very whiney player also, and yes it is a major pain. Putting aside the OP example (which was probably not the best example to use, as witnessed by all the responses lambasting the OP instead of addressing his issue); how does the whiney player affect the rest of the group?

I thought my whiney player was only POing me, until I had 3 of my 8 person group tell me they were going to quit because of him as well. At that point I faced loosing 3 or booting 1, the choice was easy. I talked the 3 into staying for 2 more sessions and gave him that time on probation to either stop whining or leave. He apparently just could not stop (he was a whiner about many other things in RL as well) so he was "invited to leave". The remaining 7 players and the lowly DM all then had much more fun. We ran for another 3 years before we disbanded.

If the whiney player is just the vocal representative of the entire / majority of the party; then he may have legitimate concerns. Still he should find a better way to express that legitimacy. I don't know any players who would tolerate a whiney DM, yet they seem very willing to reverse the situation.

Whiney just is not an option for anyone.
 

Brother MacLaren said:
What if he had reacted in-character?
"We've heard about this guy, right? We know he's the most powerful archmage alive, AND he has a beholder, a guardian construct, and two more allies? I conclude that we have no reasonable chance of survival. I grab the two nearest PCs and Teleport out of here."

No whining, no arguing, just acting in character and derailing the DM's plans. Is that better? Many DMs WISH their players would know enough to retreat from overwhelming odds instead of assuming "We're the PCs, we'll always win."

Thats a much better way of handling it, but it still doesn't really address the core problem with this player being unhappy, but it could bridge into a useful discussion. However, grabbing party members and leaving via teleport without even discussing it with the rest of the party could also be a problem- namely that the player made a decision and enforced it on everybody else.
 

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