Whiney players....

[jdrakeh]

I don't really agree, but I digress.

I know that I always hated playing in games where the PCs didn't have a chance to do anything heroic, either because they were constantly being bailed out of deliberately impossible situations by DMPCs or simply because they were never presented with a fair challenge (i.e., a challenge that they had a possibility of overcoming).

Admittedly, there might be people who really enjoy being treated like this. I don't. The "whiner" apparently doesn't either. I suspect that he's a lot like me in that he seems to want to play a hero in D&D -- and he's currently stuck in a game where the DM appears to think that his job is to foil that ambition in any way possible.

Like TheAuldGrump, I wouldn't waste my time discussing things (or "whining" even) in this situation. For me, the best solution would be to leave the group and find a DM who was more into helping me realize my aspirations to play a heroic character, rather than taking every possible opportunity to keep that from happening.

 

[Maldor]

WOW just wow i pulled a TPK off with a single bard that was 4 levels higher then the party the fact that they survived that is just wow did you like roll all nat 1

as for the problem everyone loves to bitch and do it the most when they are bored and unhappy i would bet money given how diffrent your playstilies and veiw of the game are that you do a fair share of whineing at his DMstile

P.S. hiting your players with Mord's disjuction at mid or lower levels is a NO NO it is ninth level would you hit them with metor swarm would they live

 

[DestroyYouAlot]

To the OP: Hey, OP.

Re: Your crappy player

Yecch. Find a way to not game with this guy. No gaming is better than bad gaming.

The "woe is me" refrain whenever he's up against something that (in his infinite wisdom as a player) he believes he can't handle is one thing. (From your description, the main problem was players not having paid attention - certainly something players can be counted on from time to time, but there it is - and while supporting a powerful NPC is an oft-repeated cliche of "bad gaming," done right, and sparingly, it can be perfectly valid and exciting.) Then he has the gall to complain when they have an easy encounter? (WEER POWARFUL, ONLY POWARFUL FOES SHOULD DARE TO TEST OUR MIGHT, ROOOAR) The moaning and groaning when his superstar wizard was forced into a support role for a few minutes is another. (Guess what? Sometimes you don't get to be the star of the show, Mango.) But stamping his little feet and going off to stand in the corner and sulk when he can't sling fireballs for five minutes? Completely inexcusable. Did the other players seriously stand for this? His reaction to losing a few items here and there, after all that, is somewhat unsurprising; however it's a fate that - from the sound of it - he sorely deserves. (Wonder how his PC'd fare against a well-planned ambush from those 3rd level rogues without all his shiny toys? Ahhh, but it's never good to GM angry. Must be tempting, though.)

You can find good gamers. You can find good GMs. If he acts like this on the regular, show him the door. You're worth it; there's too little time for GOOD gaming to have to waste it dealing with chumps like this.


As for the less-than-helpful responses above: You got a lot of flack for no reason, from folks who sound like they'd probably be no fun to game with too. You got a lot of assumptions of bad faith on your part. (You used a powerful ally for the party? OMG YOU GMPC-LOVING MARY SUE LOSER. You pit your PCs against some long odds, even though they had an ace up their sleeves? READ THE DMG, N00B.) (For the record, I'm conversant with the d20 take on D&D, ran it for a while, and the numbers and terms you folks are using are familiar to me - they just make you sound like very boring, whiny players. The invoking of the RAW as somehow denying a GM the freedom to plan his encounters the way he likes is particularly galling, and quite wrong.) Rest assured that - assuming your representation of the situation is relatively accurate - you have plenty of reason to complain, and my sympathies.

Just out of curiosity, how is this guy as a GM?

Well, this point is actually valid. In 3.5E you're vastly underperforming without magic items. Disjunction is one of these spells, that should die ASAP. For the first part, that's different, unless you are doing that immunity-stuff very often.

Terms like "underperforming" are nearly everything that's wrong with D&D nowadays.

 

[wolfen]

This thread reminds me of gaming when I was 12.

I hope everyone involved in the OP's game is 12. It's the only way I can reconcile the entire situation. From the mindgame-playing DM to the whiny player to the desire for revenge, the whole thing stinks.

Go outside and play some frisbee.

 

[Infiniti2000]

From your description, the main problem was players not having paid attention ...

No, the main problem was that the PCs were in a fight WAY over their heads. So way over, in fact, that they could not legitimately win, period. Whatever happened, the DM had to have handed them the fight on a silver platter. Even considering the Wiz15 on their side, they could not, should not have won.

While whining is never a good attitude, so we don't condone that, sometimes you gotta own up to your own mistakes as a DM. Those encounters sucked, plain and simple, and just should not have been there at all. The whiny player should be smacked silly and the remaining three players should have taken the DM to task for the planned encounter.

Anyone want to try and take a stab at how much the PCs got for this encounter?

 

[Slife]

Terms like "underperforming" are nearly everything that's wrong with D&D nowadays.

Fine. Replace "vastly underperforming" with "pathetically weak". The point is still valid.

A fighter pilot without any ammo, virtually no fuel, and a loss of radar and most flight control is going to return to base, regardless of how much of his mission has been accomplished.

 

[prosfilaes]

This is not a case of a DMPC- this is a case of a DM using an interesting plot twist to keep the narrative and story entertaining.

I don't buy it. We're talking an ally 5 levels above the party fighting for us, and the opponents are ten levels above us but somehow nerfed so they don't squash us. That's not challenging or interesting; that's sit back and watch the battle come out the way the DM planned.

I'm guessing this dude is a blaster wizard, with almost no spells that are utility or buffing. This guy built his wizard to be useless in some situations.

Why guess? What configuration would make this adventure fun to play for a wizard? In my experience, we can be talking at least a month gaming once a week to get through something like this; how is being useless that month fun?

And how hard would it have been to add a little variety? It's not like the tomb would have kept out xorn or giant rats or any number of other types of vermin. To make the undead at the end resistant to magic just adds insult to injury. There's more productive ways to handle it than whining about it, but I've tried the "sit there and take it" style, and it's not very much fun either.

 

[Testament]

I've got a player in my group who is the BIGGEST whiner, and I can't stand it. The biggest problem is that he is the only other person who will DM with me, so having him around is the only way I actually get to play a character.

This guy whines CONSTANTLY.

If faced with an opponant or battle that appears too tough for him, he will whine saying it's too strong of a battle and that there is no way his character would fight this battle. Such as recently, the party is 4 10th level characters and they had to battle a 19th level wizard, a 16th level sorcerer, a 15th level wizard, a beholder, and a runic guardian. Of course this battle does appear to be too powerful, the gaming group completely forgot (I have no idea how) that the previous adventure the PC's learned that the 15th level wizard was actually a spy out to stop this 19th level wizards plot. So the entire time before the battle, all I hear is whining. "Oh this is too powerful, we are out of our leagues. My character wouldn't fight this, he'd just walk away." and all of this junk. But of course the other PC's are going forward and fighting the battle so he reluctantly goes along.

When the battle begins the 15th level wizard "enemy" immediately turns on his allies and aids the PC's in the battle. The battle actually secludes the main enemy from the battle (as was planned by me from the start) as he had to work on a ritual. Thus it ended up being the 4 PC's and this 15th level wizard traitor against a 16th level sorcerer, a beholder, and a runic guardian. In the end the battle went quick. The sorcerer failed his save against prismatic spray and turned to stone on the first exchange, and the PC's destroyed the beholder and the runic guardian within two rounds. This lead to the final battle which included all PC's + the 15th level wizard against the 19th level wizard. Again, that player starts whining saying that once this wizard casts time stop they are all done for. I wanted to rip my hair out.

To repeat what others have said, while he needs to learn to listen, this is the sort of thing that needs to be done sparingly, because this really does tread the line between DMPC and outright Deus Ex Machina, and both of those are Bad Things. Realistically, the PCs should be dead before the first round is up here, the Beholder is 3 SoDs on a stick, and the 16th Level sorc should be nuking them into next week.

And it's not just this. It gets worse. If a battle happens, such as when the characters were 9th level, they were ambushed by a gang of bandit rogues, about 20 of them. These rogues were all 3rd level. The real plot behind this battle was that it was arranged by a powerful assassin to study how the PC's respond to stealthy assailants. Well this problem player walked through the battle with ease, and then was complaining that it was too easy and that I shouldn't have thrown this battle into the game. *grrrrr*

OK, that's a prize STFU moment. "Revel in your awesomeness and stop whining" is my take there.

It get's worse. While exploring an ancient Netherese Ruins the place was guarded by multiple Iron Golems. His character, a spellcaster, clearly was useless offensively as the Iron Golems are immune to most forms of magic. Thus, he was delegated to the role of the "buffer", having to cast spells that suped up the fighters. Throughout the entire dungeon there were spots still guarded by Iron Golems. This player once again began complaining about how he can't "ever" do anything in battle, that I keep arranging battles where he is useless and how it's not fun for him. Forget that this was a sealed dungeon that no one had entered in over 2000 years and that nothing outside of undead or constructs would exist in there, it doesn't matter. What matters is that I didn't arrange for the place to be filled with more than constructs... at least until the end of the dungeon where they did end up fighting undead... only then the undead had spell resistance that was hard to overcome, so he complained about that too. "There's NOTHING I can do. I need to roll of 16+ to beat his spell resistance. That's stupid. I guess I'll just back up and stand there."

Yes, it sucks. Now cry me a river, build a bridge and get over it. Sling some Conjurations, summon some stuff, ramp the fighters up into the stratosphere. This is what happens when you're a wizard who only nukes.

You think that's bad? Heaven forbid the guy gets hit by a Mordenkainens Disjunction and loses magical items. It's time to turn his character around and head back to town, forsaking his quest because he doesn't have his items.

This isn't whining, this is just smart play. MDJ is one of those spells that needs to be kicked to the curb, since magic items aren't just gravy, they're absolutely vital in 3.X.

 

[pogre]

Mordenkainens Disjunction

We have a gentlemens' agreement (and one lady) that neither I nor my players will use this particular spell. You are much better off getting killed than losing all your stuff.

Someone said this situation boils down to a complete lack of trust in the game. It really seems like your player does not trust you to bring exciting, but not overwhelming fights to the table. You have to admit, on paper the fight does look lopsided - perhaps more clues would help put your players at ease. I could see players getting a bit anxious about that fight.

The complaining about too easy of an encounter is more of a concern. If the encounter furthered the story - I don't see this as a valid complaint. Heck, I purposely include easy encounters that I know the party will walk through - I have some buttkickers in my group who LOVE these kind of encounters.

Others have suggested there is a mismatch of styles and expectations - that too I agree with. You may never be able to satsfy the player even after an open conversation about the game and gaming styles. It's still worth trying.

Good luck.

 

[Gothmog]

I don't buy it. We're talking an ally 5 levels above the party fighting for us, and the opponents are ten levels above us but somehow nerfed so they don't squash us. That's not challenging or interesting; that's sit back and watch the battle come out the way the DM planned.

Maybe I've misunderstood the meaning for DMPC, but I got the impression a DMPC is an NPC the DM has accompany the group for a long period of time, and who he has a personal vested interest in. An ally for one fight (as this seems to be from what the OP said) is harly a DMPC. Are you telling me that in all your years of gaming, you've NEVER had NPCs aid the party in a fight? Heck, I can remember the 3rd adventure I ever played in 1e AD&D, we got in a pretty massive brawl in a tavern with some theives guild toughs we were trying to be sneaky and get info from, and they started mopping the ground with us. Due to the disturbance, the city guard showed up, and helped break up the fight and take prisoners. Afterwards, we talked to the guard captain, and realized he was about 5th level. We worked with the guards a few times in later adventures, but that particular guard captain was never in a fight with us again. Is that a DMPC, or a character that made sense to be there in the situation given the circumstances? Besides, there are certain situations where DMPCs can be a viable option, especially if the group is shorthanded and the players trust the DM not to abuse it. Saying a DMPC is ALWAYS badwrongfun is patently ridiculous and closeminded.

However, I do agree that a DMPC who is substantially more powerful than the group coming in repeatedly to bail them out or show off his power is obnoxious. I've been in that situation before, and its no fun. This doesn't seem to be the case here though.

Why guess? What configuration would make this adventure fun to play for a wizard? In my experience, we can be talking at least a month gaming once a week to get through something like this; how is being useless that month fun?

And how hard would it have been to add a little variety? It's not like the tomb would have kept out xorn or giant rats or any number of other types of vermin. To make the undead at the end resistant to magic just adds insult to injury. There's more productive ways to handle it than whining about it, but I've tried the "sit there and take it" style, and it's not very much fun either.

How about using some conjurations that don't rely on SR against the undead? Or invisibility, flight, or other defensive measures to imporve the wizard's survivability while casting beneficial spells on the other party members who could directly fight the golems (haste, bull's strength, etc). Summonings could work great too to increase the number of combatants and take some heat off the party fighters. Even using terrain modifying spells against the golems might work- like grease, web, etc. From the way the OP described things, this was the first time or locale this had happened. His wizard had a cakewalk through the bandit encounter- and I'm guessing there have been lots of other encounters in the campaign where his blasting worked just fine. The point is the guy built a blaster wizard- a complete one-trick pony. In this situation, those tactics didn't work, and a good player tries to adapt and think of inventive ways to use his abilities. When this whiny player hit a situation where he wasn't able to directly deal tons of damage, he threw a temper tantrum and ran off to the corner to sulk. Real mature.