Whirlwind Attack vs Invisibility

[ruleslawyer]

Open to what interpretation?

WWA: You "make one melee attack at the full base attack bonus against each opponent within 5 feet."

Disarm: "This action substitutes for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, it can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."

Trip: "This attack form substitutes for a melee attack, not an action. As a melee attack, it can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."

Grapple: "Attempting to start a grapple is the equivalent of making a melee attack."

I don't think an FAQ explanation or Sage Advice is needed here; these are just the rules as written.

 

[Skaros]

Open to what interpretation?

WWA: You "make one melee attack at the full base attack bonus against each opponent within 5 feet."

Disarm: "This action substitutes for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, it can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."

Trip: "This attack form substitutes for a melee attack, not an action. As a melee attack, it can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity."

Grapple: "Attempting to start a grapple is the equivalent of making a melee attack."

I don't think an FAQ explanation or Sage Advice is needed here; these are just the rules as written.

Very clear.

It isn't even that hard to imagine. After all, the first part of a grapple is just a touch attack to grab the person.

So, warrior with an invisible foe next door starts a whirlwind of touch attacks at unseen foes nearby, and if he makes it along with his 50/50 miss chance, he gets to go for the opposed grapple check.

Skaros

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Why would it give you eight (of any type) attacks? There's only one creature there -- one attack, pick a square, 50% miss chance.

 

[Kemrain]

And now for somethign completely the same?

If there were two invisible opponents around a combatant using WWA, and the attacker decided to make a grapple attempt as his WWA, he would make a grab attempt at each square surrounding him. When he got to where the first invisible baddy was, he would roll his miss chance. Let's say he hits, and now here's my question...

Would he know the guy was there, and get to continue the circle of attacks, or would he then be grappling with the first invisible opponent? Let's just assume he made the opposed roll is really is grappling the invisible guy, does the WWA'er get to keep attacking the rest of the adjacent squares, or is his attack finished? If he can keep attacking, what's to keep him from grappeling with 8 people at once, yet seperately? Don't you have to move into your opponent's swuare to grapple?

Now, what if he failed the roll to initiate a grapple? Would he get the rest of his attacks, and keep swinging and trying to grapple until he either hit someone and grappled, or ran out of squares to attack?

Also, if he made the unarmed touch attack and hit, but decided to forgo an opposed roll entirely, would he be able to continue the attack to the other squares?

Make my brain work again, please!

- Kemrain the Dazed and Confused

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why would it give you eight (of any type) attacks? There's only one creature there -- one attack, pick a square, 50% miss chance.

Now, let's say that there are three invisible opponents. They might be within 5' of him, or they might not. (The DM knows there are two within 5'.) How many attacks does Whirlwind Attack give him?

Next example - there are three invisible opponents and two invisible allies within 5' of him. He doesn't know who is in which square. How many attacks does Whirlwind Attack give him?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: And now for somethign completely the same?

Would he know the guy was there, and get to continue the circle of attacks, or would he then be grappling with the first invisible opponent? Let's just assume he made the opposed roll is really is grappling the invisible guy, does the WWA'er get to keep attacking the rest of the adjacent squares, or is his attack finished? If he can keep attacking, what's to keep him from grappeling with 8 people at once, yet seperately? Don't you have to move into your opponent's swuare to grapple?

If he successfully started a grapple, he a/ moves into his opponent's square, and b/ no longer threatens an area. So he would be unable to continue his Whirlwind.

-Hyp.

 

[FireLance]

Re: And now for somethign completely the same?

If there were two invisible opponents around a combatant using WWA, and the attacker decided to make a grapple attempt as his WWA, he would make a grab attempt at each square surrounding him. When he got to where the first invisible baddy was, he would roll his miss chance. Let's say he hits, and now here's my question...

For what it's worth, here's how I would rule it.

Would he know the guy was there, and get to continue the circle of attacks, or would he then be grappling with the first invisible opponent?

The attacker would know that something is there. What happens next is up to him. He could either keep making touch attacks into the other squares or choose to grapple the opponent he has just touched.

Let's just assume he made the opposed roll is really is grappling the invisible guy, does the WWA'er get to keep attacking the rest of the adjacent squares, or is his attack finished?

I would rule that his attack is finished for the round, if he decides to initiate a grapple.

If he can keep attacking, what's to keep him from grappeling with 8 people at once, yet seperately? Don't you have to move into your opponent's square to grapple?

While he would not be able to make any more attacks in that round, there is nothing to prevent him from conducting a grapple with just one appendage (in the case of a humanoid attacker, one arm) with a -20 penalty to the grapple check and making more touch attacks with his other appendage(s) in subsequent rounds (with appropriate penalties for "attacking" with two weapons). I can't remember the specifics of the grapple rules, but I think a grappler can drag his opponent into his space (rather than moving into the opponent's space) under certain circumstances.

Now, what if he failed the roll to initiate a grapple? Would he get the rest of his attacks, and keep swinging and trying to grapple until he either hit someone and grappled, or ran out of squares to attack?

I would rule yes.

Also, if he made the unarmed touch attack and hit, but decided to forgo an opposed roll entirely, would he be able to continue the attack to the other squares?

I would rule yes.

Hope this helps!

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Next example - there are three invisible opponents and two invisible allies within 5' of him. He doesn't know who is in which square. How many attacks does Whirlwind Attack give him?

Or better yet, there are three visible attackers surrounding him, and the PC thinks there may be invisible attackers as well.

If you allow a whirlwind attack with an invisible opponent(s), then you might as well allow WWA to grant an attack at every square surrounding the PC every time it is used -- the other attacks are "in case there's an invisible opponent in the square".

Having considered it, I'd rule WWA doesn't apply if you haven't pinpointed your attackers. If you don't know where they are, pick as square(s) and execute your normal attacks.

 

[Someone]

Since allies are not attacked with WWA I´d say that it does not attack everything and thus you have to know there´s a opponent in a given square to attack him.

 

[Plane Sailing]

A PC in my game used whirlwind attack to attack a devil which was fighting him from within a darkness spell. It seemed to me to be a brilliant and innovative use of probably the most difficult feat to obtain (in terms of feat chains).

He didn't use grapple attacks, he just made a normal attack at the 50% miss chance because in the process of the whirlwind attack he automatically targetted the adjacent invisible foe.

As long as normal attacks were being made I'd be happy to allow someone to do this on any combination of visible and invisible attackers. I might allow them to make multiple grapples, but since I'd apply the -20 penalty to grapple check for not concentrating wholly on the grapple (a la improved grab) it wouldn't really be worth attempting in most cases.

Cheers