Whirlwind Great Cleave?

[Dimwhit]

The bag of snails/rats idea is just plain silly. There's one simple fix: the idea behind cleave, whirlwind, etc. is that you get those benefits against opponents. I would hardly consider a bad of rats that you bring with you to be opponents.

 

[Forrester]

It's simple: You allow it. It won't break the game.

Whatever. It's retarded. Regardless of whether or not it breaks the game, that's reason enough to nuke it.

And I still say that getting triple or quadruple attacks against the Big Bad because there are rats nearby, or the Big Bad has a couple lackeys to his right and left is *mondo* retarded.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If you don't want people to be able to summon guys and then WWGC through them, then don't allow it. It's obviously metagaming, and you should just flat out not let your players do it.

Please allow me to indulge a little nitpicking...

It may be many things but it certainly is not metagaming. The actual capabilities of the characters are unambiguously character knowledge. It is not possible to metagame based purely of character knowledge -- by definition.

The real problem is WWA + GC potentially breaks suspension of disbelief in a rather violent way because the logic of the rules fails to map to any sensible real or fantasy world (in some special cases). That is indeed a metagame problem, but it is caused by the rules.

If, say, shuriken caused d100 damage apiece, it is not metagaming for all the PCs to want to use shurikens. In fact, it is metagaming to expect PCs not to use shurikens.

 

[nute]

My thought on it is that yes, it can work - but it may not turn out how the player wants.

Whirlwind Attack + Great Cleave - say Joe Bob Fighter has 4 attacks per round. In front of him is a pit fiend. On either side of Bob are 2 goblins. Now, with Whirlwind attack, Bob could make one attack against each guy, and if one drops, he gets an immediate Great Cleave against an opponent in the immediate vicinity. (As per the FAQ).

Since using normal multiple attacks doesn't require you to declare all attacks before you roll the first one, I'd figure Whirlwind attack works the same way (It doesn't say differently, and in all other ways each attack in the Whirlwind is treated like a normal attack). So Joe Bob decides he'll work right-to-left.

1) Hits Goblin 1 for 10 damage, kills it.
2) Takes his free attack from GC on the Pit Fiend.

Wait, what about that goblin in the middle? Imagine how a Cleave would work. Weapon goes through the first victim, then on to hit the second. The interposing goblin may provide partial cover for the Pit Fiend, or possibly a penalty on the Cleave attempt.

Anyway, Joe Bob kills the second and third goblins, each time taking a Cleave attempt on the Pit Fiend. Attacks the Pit Fiend, no Cleave (doesn't drop it). Attacks the last goblin - and it doesn't die.

Next in initiative - the goblin, who has quite a few levels in Cleric. He casts Raise Dead on one of his buddies. Raised Goblin gets up.

Next in initiative - Pit Fiend, who coincidentally has Whirlwind Attack and Great Cleave. What, demons can't learn nifty combat tricks?

Pit Fiend attacks the raised goblin - kills it, WHACKS Joe Bob with his cleave. Attacks the goblin cleric - kills it, WHACKS Joe Bob with his cleave. Then attacks Joe Bob - WHACK.

Simple solution. If an ability's too broken, let the antagonists learn it, too.

~M.

 

[Dark Jezter]

Great Cleave + Whirlwind Attack is allowed under the rules; it explains so in the D&D Rules FAQ at WotC's web site.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Imagine how a Cleave would work. Weapon goes through the first victim, then on to hit the second. The interposing goblin may provide partial cover for the Pit Fiend, or possibly a penalty on the Cleave attempt.

Now explain a Cleave with a punching dagger.

Just because the feat is named "Cleave" doesn't mean the attack has to chop through one opponent into the next, just like the Lightning Fists feat could apply to kicks or headbutts.

If there is nothing between you and the Pit Fiend, he has no cover relative to you. What cover he has relative to the first goblin is irrelevant.

-Hyp.

 

[Zentermi]

Seems to me, that GC was intended to replace SWEEP(god those gold box games were fun<especially if you got the Vorpal sword>) attacks from 2nd(1st?) Edition.

"EVILBANE SWEEPS... a Kobold is Decapitated!"
"EVILBANE SWEEPS... a Kobold is Decapitated!"
"EVILBANE SWEEPS... a Kobold is Decapitated!"
"EVILBANE SWEEPS... a Kobold is Decapitated!"
"EVILBANE SWEEPS... a Kobold is Decapitated!"


If you follow that logic, it follows that the intent is to allow speedy dispatch of the Potato Critters to get to the Meat Critters. Use in the ways(hitting BBEG between slams on the lil-guys) described goes against the intent of a sweep. I think a fair thing to do is allow it to work, but with the following restriction: WWA is one attack. Great Cleave begins at the end of the FULL WWA. It would allow the dispatch of lesser foes to a higher degree(Intent IMO), but it would end when the 1st opponent doesn't die.

As for the reality of it... we've all seen Kung Fu movies where a small army attacks the hero. I prefer to look at it like that(totally dynamic, kill-whirl-kill-crouch-kill-spin-kill- flip-BBEG-things get serious...), not the static 'kill, turn 45degrees, kill, does that guy look wounded?, turn 90degrees kill... looks pretty stupid that way.

 

[Caliban]

I just made one house rule for the Whirlwind/Great Cleave combo: Pick a direction (clockwise or counterclockwise) to start the whirlwind attack in. Every Cleave attack must go against the next nearest foe in that direction.

No switching the direction of your swing between every attack, you just whirl around attacking every foe in turn, and occasionally getting two attacks against an opponent if you dropped the guy nearest him.

 

[med stud]

As a thinking human being, you can tell when your players are trying to abuse the WW/ greater cleave- combo. In that case, ask them to play in the spirit of the game.

 

[Legildur]

Have you guys got something against fighters shining a handful of times in their careers? Let's be honest with ourselves, it takes 8 feats and 3 ability scores of 13 or better to be eligible for this combination, which only works when you have certain parameters met.

Does it need to be house-ruled?

While you are at it, bin the shield-smiting paladins and uber-archers.......