White Wolf viciously attacks everyone who roleplays for fun

[BryonD]

"Many roleplaying games are more concerned with rules and statistics than the drama created within the game. Some people call those roll-playing games, since they're more focused on dice-rolling than on role-playing...Just don't get lost in the Ivory Tower. Don't deride those who see gaming as a fun hobby (which it is), or those whose roleplaying stories don't aim higher. Instead, encourage and persuade players to stretch their boundries. Storytelling is about acheiving something great through an interactive tale, but not at the expense of fun. "

I do find this statement rather ironic.
IMHO, the highest aim is to get the most out of ROLE-PLAYING and GAME at the same time.

They are critical of the minimizing the role-playing part ("roll-playing") and then turn around and forget the GAME part. "Roleplaying stories", so it isn't even a game now.

There are two ivory towers here. But it appears the best vantage point to see either one is to be standing on the other.

But this is the classic WoD debate......


As to it being an attack, um NO.
Someone needs to find a dictionary and look up the words "subjective" and "objective". So at least one author (and presumably one editor) at WW thinks that free-form improv drama is the ultimate height of RPSs (obviously not RPGs). So they think they are being helpful by spreading the holy word.
A certain percentage of humans will always find the simple statement of a dissenting opinion to be an attack. But that subjective belief will never produce objective truth.

In my completely subjective opinion, to call this specific example of opinion "vicious" is plain silly. (And some people will, of course, consider this statment an attack, even though it is not).

I do not find WW's position threatening. I find it ever so mildly amusing.

 

[Nisarg]

Did I wake up this morning in Bizzaro world? Does not the phrase actually say the exact opposite of what you're claiming it does? I don't know, Nisarg, you really seem to be coming out of left field with this...

Well, if you think they're saying "roleplaying should be fun above all" or "we are a roleplaying game like most other good roleplaying games", or "you are no better than any other gamer by the mere virtue of playing Storyteller games", or anything along those lines, I would have to say that you would be pretty mistaken.

What they were doing, though, was taking an INCREDIBLY ELITIST PRETENTIOUS statement and couching it in language that makes it sound like what they're saying is somehow acceptable..the "remember to have fun too" thing at the end can only either be interpreted as an invalidation of all of their earlier statements (but in which case, why put it there in the first place, really?), or its a meaningless line to cover their rears when someone calls them on all the rest of the pretentiousness of their statement.

Nisarg

-----------
"In 1991, White Wolf Almost Destroyed the Gaming Industry. In 2004, 'Almost' Isn't Going To Cut It."
-ESKemp

 

[takyris]

Hey, nisarg, just for the record, man, I'm a dedicated d20 player who tried 1st Edition Vampire back when it was just Vampire and thought it was overly whiny and silly and fairly melodramatic and never gave it a go subsequently... and I think you're creating an attack where there wasn't one.

 

[eyebeams]

What they were doing, though, was taking an INCREDIBLY ELITIST PRETENTIOUS statement and couching it in language that makes it sound like what they're saying is somehow acceptable.

You said it in all caps, so it must be true.

 

[Mark]

Looks to me like they're trying to get their players to be more inclusive and thus expand their marketshare.

 

[Nightfall]

Indeed, I really think that you're reading way too much into that quote there...

That or he's just trying to justify his hate for DoW.

 

[alleynbard]

Oh my gods, please. Stop. For all of us.

Your statement is inherently flawed and born of a delusional need to "get your hate on".

I play many RPGs, including WoD and D&D, I don't think WW has come out with guns blaring, trying to pee in everyone's Cheerios.

In fact, Nisarg, you are the one spreading bile and venom. For some people the act of spreading poison brings them joy, a sick sort of fascination with making others unhappy. Your obession at proving yourself right and the rest of us wrong has made you one of those people. Don't be one of those people.

You obviously took the time to read the books, scanning the contents in hope you would find proof that would support your claims. What does that say about you? Think for awhile before you open your mouth again. What has happened that drives this need of yours?

I am sure you a very fine person, most people are. But this is all very surreal right now. You are not doing yourself, or anyone else for that matter, a service by ranting the way you are. In fact, the more you continue this argument the less supporters you seem to find.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

You might have an axe to grind after being banned from RPG.net

...it's possible to be banned from RPG.net?

One learns something new every day.

Brad

 

[Mythtify]

Wow, and I only thought that you trolled Planescape threads. Branching out to WW now,.

He dosn't much care for eberron either.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

So?

So what? The pretentiousness of the White Wolf has always been part of the game. I take it with a grain of salt and play their games. After a few years of playing nothing other than White Wolf games my friends and I went back to D&D and Champions and we found something strange. Instead of going around and trying to create the biggest baddest characters and just do combat all the time, we had changed. We roleplayed, we engaged the world, we interacted with each other, and we did stuff other than explore and fight. I learned to be a better DM/Storyteller from White Wolf and just could never see the dungeon the same way again. We had played the aforementioned Hero and D&D, but we had also played Shadowrun, GURPS, Cyberpunk, and Runequest. In all these games we played the "kick in the door, kill the orc, collect the loot" (of course in Shadowrun, the orc had cyberware). But Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, Wraith, and Changeling had fundamentally changed the way we played our games. It changed the way we saw games. It encouraged us to play differently and broadened our horizons.

As for being a simple system. It is nowhere near the technical level of Hero. If you ever played hero or made a character you would know this. The only games that have ever been more complicated than Hero are from Norway. Saying I want two dots of Dominate is nothing compared to taking x levels of Mind Control with all the extras you would need to emulate Dominate (from someone who tried converting disciplines to Hero, I should know). No, its not rules lite, but it is simplier than D&D. You don't have to worry about a bizarre list of bonus names and whether or not they stack. You don't have to worry about a rulebook that is half spells. You don't have to worry about a bizarre set of prestige classes with a bizarre set of abilities (let's compare the number of bloodlines to the number of prestige classes, I don't think the stack is near equal).

And I guess you have admitted you were wrong about White Wolf almost destroying the industry when you stated "Vampire Revised outsold D&D for about a month." Why you didn't do so when I challenged you last time is beyond me.