White Wolf viciously attacks everyone who roleplays for fun

[Desdichado]

Everything I ever said on RPG.net is now vindicated.

So, how do all you non-WW players feel about what WW thinks of you? How do WW players explain themselves in the face of this proof now?

Are you sure you're responding to the same quote you retyped? It seems to me that White Wolf clearly said "don't get lost in the Ivory Tower" and "Don't deride those who see gaming as a fun hobby (which it is)" and "Storytelling is about acheiving something great through an interactive tale, but not at the expense of fun."

My interpretation of that is that White Wolf knows that a lot of pretentious goobers are included in their market segment, and they're trying to encourage them to remember that this is supposed to be about fun first. Exactly how you take all that to mean that White Wolf thinks it shouldn't be fun because it's too serious is beyond me.

Spoken as a former WW player, that is...

 

[PJ-Mason]

You know, Nisarg, if i didn't know better, i'd say you had it out for White Wolf.....wait a minute, i DO know better.

Really though, that statement rates about 190th in "Outrageous White Wolf arrogance displays" over the years. If anything it looks like they have mellowed quite a bit, that text was almost a "live and let live" outburst.

My personal belief is that WW never wanted a decent game system for their books in the first place. I think they have a crappy system on purpose! How is that for a conspiracy theory!?

They always seem to want force their playes to "evolve" into some sort of role-playing nirvana where everyone communicates through mental melds while wearing goth make-up. LOL.

Overall, i'd say you just need to relax and concentrate on your own games, Nisarg. Its better for your blood pressure.

 

[Henry]

I'm afraid I don't see an attack, either. What I DO see in that statement is, well, marketing hype. The same type that's all over consumer products that is used to validate their product against any other. "Play our game! It's better than the other brand!"

Even then, the whole message about the "Ivory Tower" gets the point across that no one should be elitist and hide away from other games or gamers; instead, the message seems to be to mix and mingle! "Storytelling is about acheiving something great through an interactive tale, but not at the expense of fun."

Not meaning to insult you, Nisarg, but I'm not coming to the same conclusion you are.

 

[herald]

For everyone who ever accused me of either lying or being out of date when I accused of WW of being elitist; from the freshly-minted pages of the new WoD book:

"Many roleplaying games are more concerned with rules and statistics than the drama created within the game. Some people call those roll-playing games, since they're more focused on dice-rolling than on role-playing...Just don't get lost in the Ivory Tower. Don't deride those who see gaming as a fun hobby (which it is), or those whose roleplaying stories don't aim higher. Instead, encourage and persuade players to stretch their boundries. Storytelling is about acheiving something great through an interactive tale, but not at the expense of fun. "

The particular irony of this is that if ANYONE needs to be "encouraged and persuaded" and "helped" to stretch their boundaries, its people who play WW games. Not only are they apparently convinced that role-play cannot be fun, it has to be serious; but they also are hypocrites: WW games are JUST as mechanical and dice-dependent (and in sheer numbers roll more dice) than D&D. WW games are certainly not "rules lite" in the sense of Over the Edge or Feng Shui..

Everything I ever said on RPG.net is now vindicated.

So, how do all you non-WW players feel about what WW thinks of you? How do WW players explain themselves in the face of this proof now?

Nisarg

Sorry, don't buy your arguement on this one.

 

[DragonLancer]

I'm a D&D player/DM and a fan of WW and their game systems (Vampire mostly), and I think that your're reading too much into that quote.

Roleplaying games are fun and always should be, but some games are meant by their very nature to be more serious (World of Darkness games for instance). I really don't know why some people find that such a threat. I'd like D&D to be marketed more serious than it is, but hey, thats just me.

White Wolf can say what they want. At the end of the day I trust them to come up with a good game system, a great setting, and give me hours of fun running a vampire game.

Their games are not for everyone. Not all gamers enjoy the political intrigue, backstabbing and getting shafted mood, that their games play out as.

Heres to White Wolf and their new WoD.

 

[Sir Elton]

The particular irony of this is that if ANYONE needs to be "encouraged and persuaded" and "helped" to stretch their boundaries, its people who play WW games. Not only are they apparently convinced that role-play cannot be fun, it has to be serious; but they also are hypocrites: WW games are JUST as mechanical and dice-dependent (and in sheer numbers roll more dice) than D&D. WW games are certainly not "rules lite" in the sense of Over the Edge or Feng Shui..

What? Hey, I like swashbuckling roleplaying, I like fu and wuxia roleplaying. I enjoy Ars Magica (Ars Magica is one of the best games). I even like White Wolf's Werewolf. But most principally, I like fun. But I have to agree with Henry on this.

The only way another company is going to push their system onto others is to say that their game is better than D&D. Feng Shui is Unpretentious in its claims (the game relies heavily on violence and hackneyed storylines), Ars Magica is Unpretentious (Wizards are more powerful than any character in the game), and White Wolf's Storyteller System is a Drama Queen system, maybe.

The only reason why I like Feng Shui over D&D is that miniatures take a backseat and you roleplay combat. D&D actually is a miniatures combat game masquerading as a roleplaying game (Maybe D&D should be called Dungeons and Dragons: The Masquerade). I don't like the White Wolf storyteller system because Ars Magica's storyteller system is dice lite and requires just as much Roleplaying.

I only play Dungeons and Dragons with the Wuxia Combat Add-in from Burning Shaolin now. Simply because that's my style. I want players to roleplay combat and get rewarded for it.

 

[Qlippoth]

In other news: Sky is blue, water is wet.

PLEASE use spoiler tags next time!

 

[billd91]

<snip>
The particular irony of this is that if ANYONE needs to be "encouraged and persuaded" and "helped" to stretch their boundaries, its people who play WW games. Not only are they apparently convinced that role-play cannot be fun, it has to be serious; but they also are hypocrites: WW games are JUST as mechanical and dice-dependent (and in sheer numbers roll more dice) than D&D. WW games are certainly not "rules lite" in the sense of Over the Edge or Feng Shui..

What a hysterical load of bunk. The quote you just posted from the WW book said that the building of the story doesn't come at the expense of fun at all.

Who cares if WW looks down on roll-players: There are plenty of D&D players, including ones on this board, who do the same. That's the conceit of many hard-core ROLE-players (also known as "community theater rejects" ). There are plenty in gaming willing enough to savage other people in the community, other styles of play, or games of choice that we don't really need any ping on WW for a pretty mellow statement about encouraging people to adopt a different style of gaming for the storyteller-style games.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

When I read the title of this thread I momentarily thought that a big white dog had mauled a gaming group.

Imagine my dissapointment.

 

[Barastrondo]

As I'm sure Nisarg would be happy to explain, in the '90s, White Wolf nearly destroyed the roleplaying hobby. This quote merely marks the salvo with which we hope to finish the job. Once our Master Plan is complete, THERE WILL BE NO ROLEPLAYING! AHAHARHARHAR!

So, weekend before last, I ran a D&D caper flick set in the City of Brass. This week, I'm working on painting up a GW river troll (I do like their river trolls) so I have a big painted centerpiece when my brother and my wife try to root out some trolls. Under a bridge, no less. And wait... I work for White Wolf, and am at the heart of the new World of Darkness team, and therefore every word printed in a World of Darkness book must speak for my soul. And yet... I've written Sword and Sorcery stuff for D&D as well, and even recruited the inestimable (contact) as a consultant on a couple of Relics & Rituals books, based on a friendship that grew out of EnWorld.

My goodness, I've viciously attacked myself! O, the depths of inner self-loathing that must surely boil within me. I will probably have to dash all the miniatures from my painting table in order to reclaim the table space and write a poem — wait, screw that, my Blood Bowl team apothecary isn't done yet.

I guess I'll get around to expressing the howl of anguish and hatred for everything that I love that wells up within my blackened soul later, if that's okay with you.