Who needs the cleric class?

[Darklone]

Since Firebeetle amuses us each month at least with another bard suxx thread, I thought it's about time we whine about something else.

The cleric class advantages:
- Medium BAB: Good fighter. Not a full fighter, but often a single buff is enough.
- Full spellcasting, huge list of known spells, 2 domain powers and spell lists extra.
- Cure spells: It's the best healerclass even without Spontaneous Curing.
- Turn Undead. As if this wouldn't be enough, we still get Divine feats to get extra Ompfh here.
- Good hitpoints and full armor proficiencies.

Now let's proceed to the disadvantages:
- Scarcely any skillpoints.
- You have a boss sitting on a cloud who tells you what to do.

So, tell me once again what you think about the class, how it should be changed, whether it should be changed and:
Which additional goodies do you think will 4E have for the pooooor weak and unloved cleric class?

 

[WhatGravitas]

Now let's proceed to the disadvantages:
- Scarcely any skillpoints.
- You have a boss sitting on a cloud who tells you what to do.

About 1): He doesn't need skills. Sense Motive? Discern Lies. Climb? Wind Walk. Knowledge? Commune. Survival? Create Food and Water.
Almost everything can be done with spells. This is true for the Sorcerer/Wizard too, but the Cleric is deeper invested into these utility spells, and gets more stuff to the boot, as you've listed as "advantages".
And "boss on cloud"? Worship a concept. Completely valid according to the PHB. In fact, the cleric even makes a better bard! Make a cleric worhshipping the holy harmony of music, get a mandolin as holy symbol, and start rockin' the world. With Divine Might.

EDIT: Forgot to draw the conclusion: Cleric is waaaay too good. But it also applies to the Druid in similar ways.

 

[blargney the second]

I like the cleric more or less as is. Domains are awesome, and I think it'd make the cleric even more interesting if they had a stronger focus on domains.

 

[XO]

So Goooooood...

..., in fact, that few people wanted to play one before 3e, and that still remains true!

The cleric is fine as it is, and it also makes a decent BBEG under certain circumstances.

 

[zoroaster100]

The change I would most like to see for 4e with respect to the cleric is to abolish their monopoly on healing. I would like to see all spell casters have some moderate access to healing, just as now all casters have moderate access to damaging spells. I would like to see at least one non-religious based healer class, such as an arcane caster with strong healing magic. Then I would like to see the cleric reduced in power slightly so that it is no stronger or weaker than the other core classes.

Right now I think the designers have tried to make the cleric extra strong and have tried to protect the cleric's healing monopoly because they think it is necessary to force one player in the group to force to play the cleric. Why??? 3e was supposed to be about choices. 3e did a good job of opening the game to many more options so if someone wants to play an elf paladin they can, or if they want to play a wizard that wields a greatsword they can. Why force a player to play a divine caster?

The game should be designed so that a party is perfectly viable without a divine caster. The second "weakness" listed by the original poster, of having to follow orders of someone up in a cloud, is really not a weakness, but it is a roleplaying factor. Some people feel like playing a follower of a deity, some don't. The game should be dependent on having one of the players in the group follow a deity. That requires providing at least one truly viable choice of healer that is not at all associated with deity worship.

 

[bento]

Cleric is my favorite class because of the versatility. I can build him to fight as a tank, then have all the buff & healing spells.

The players I sometimes GM have also gotten on the cleric bandwagon. Last time we played each one created a cleric!

And if you don't like the lack of skills, MC first as a rogue for several levels then move over to cleric. One of the most interesting PrCs I've seen is the Temple Raider of Olidammara - I built one as an NPC.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

The change I would most like to see for 4e with respect to the cleric is to abolish their monopoly on healing. I would like to see all spell casters have some moderate access to healing, just as now all casters have moderate access to damaging spells. I would like to see at least one non-religious based healer class, such as an arcane caster with strong healing magic. Then I would like to see the cleric reduced in power slightly so that it is no stronger or weaker than the other core classes.

Right now I think the designers have tried to make the cleric extra strong and have tried to protect the cleric's healing monopoly because they think it is necessary to force one player in the group to force to play the cleric. Why??? 3e was supposed to be about choices. 3e did a good job of opening the game to many more options so if someone wants to play an elf paladin they can, or if they want to play a wizard that wields a greatsword they can. Why force a player to play a divine caster?

The game should be designed so that a party is perfectly viable without a divine caster. The second "weakness" listed by the original poster, of having to follow orders of someone up in a cloud, is really not a weakness, but it is a roleplaying factor. Some people feel like playing a follower of a deity, some don't. The game should be dependent on having one of the players in the group follow a deity. That requires providing at least one truly viable choice of healer that is not at all associated with deity worship.

Couldn't put it better myself. In the past I have let made healing spells open to anyone, and dropped the cleric to a d6 added 4 skill points and took away heavy armor. The people who liked playing them still played them, and they liked not being the only walking bandaid.

 

[rekres]

I like the cleric more or less as is. Domains are awesome, and I think it'd make the cleric even more interesting if they had a stronger focus on domains.

Houserule: Drop spontaneous curing, gain spontaneous domain spells (without the extra 1 domain spell per spell-level).

You want spontaneous curing, you take the Heal domain. You want spontaneous fire spells, you take the Fire domain.

Another houserule: Drop standard Turning, instead use Turn attempts to cast heal spells. Which if you cast a heal spell on an undead, it damages them...

 

[Henrix]

I would like to see healing correspond to how hit points and damage has evolved.

Hit points have gone up since earlier editions, and so has damage, but healing is the same (1d8+1 for a first level CLW).

Moreover critical hits means that you always have to be a maximum hit points at the start of a battle, as even a first level standard orc risks doing 4d4+8 (with a falchion, i.e. fairly often).

The effect is that, no matter how powerful the cleric class is, he runs out of spells first of all (the wizard only casts one spell/round of combat - the cleric buffs more and heals after).

So, healing needs to be increased. (And crits would need to be a little downtoned, in my opinion.)



In AD&D1 most characters had their hit dice for hit points (and not maximum at first level either). Some of them had an extra or two points for their con.
And most damage was just the weapon damage, and a couple of points extra for high strength, but monsters just did what they had listed. An orc did 1d8. No crits.
But Cure Light Wounds healed 1d8+1.

 

[Darklone]

Sooo. Healing should be changed. Agreed. I'd rather see a big change regarding hitpoints the differences due to Con mods and classes are a little bit too great to my taste.

Who doesn't like the cleric in his paladinish manner? Holy warrior... duh. That's the paladins role, the cleric should be a little bit more the pure spellcaster and preacher. Social/knowledge skills go.