Christopher Lambert
First Post
Judging from the amount of PrC-bashing going on, it was a bad idea.
Why _DON'T_ You Buy Dragon Magazine?
- Thread starter Erik Mona
- Start date
Judging from the amount of PrC-bashing going on, it was a bad idea.
Arcane Runes Press
First Post
Christopher Lambert said:
On the other hand, the effects of PrC oversaturation are more likely to be felt here than they are elsewhere.
ENWorlders are far more supportive of 3rd party product than many people on WotC's own board are, for example. So while people here have seen 830 different PrCs, many others will have only seen what WotC themselves provide.
Timeboxer
Explorer
Okay, here're my somewhat jumbled and incoherent thoughts. The only two Dragons I own were for the DM Screen, and also the Campaign Settings one. I have to admit that I've never found Dragon all that interesting, and find Dungeon much more useful -- too much crunch, as a lot of people have noted.
That said, I don't read the fiction, to be honest, but I would if every piece of fiction had some relevance to my game -- as in, if it were the fluff that gave me a cool new NPC or magic item or feat or whatever. Otherwise, it's not very useful, since it's not really applicable to anything I'm doing.
A lot of people have been talking about battle tactics and so on, and I think that something about brilliant and creative uses for spells, both in and out of battle, would make me very enthused. Or things like the "Knight's Walk" tactic of using Spring Attack, and that sort of thing.
Oh, yes, and I'm going to buck the trend and say that I love Eberron, and I find Eberron adventures in Dungeon useful and good, but these interviews on creating Eberron and so on -- no. Give me useful fluff that's helpful for entwining a character within the setting. I also think that it would be nice if Dragon acted as the vanguard for some of the old settings that people are still interested in. An article a month, perhaps?
$40 is too much for a magazine, I agree; if it were something like $20 or $25, however, I'd certainly obtain a subscription.
Finally, I think that the litmus test for a good issue of Dragon would go something like: "In ten years, when everyone is playing D&D v5.4123, will this still be useful?" I've heard a lot of people talking about how their old issues of Dragon are still chockful of ideas, and I think that the current nature of Dragon is a bit, well, ephemeral; fluff goes a much longer way toward mitigating this than any amount of crunch does.
That said, I don't read the fiction, to be honest, but I would if every piece of fiction had some relevance to my game -- as in, if it were the fluff that gave me a cool new NPC or magic item or feat or whatever. Otherwise, it's not very useful, since it's not really applicable to anything I'm doing.
A lot of people have been talking about battle tactics and so on, and I think that something about brilliant and creative uses for spells, both in and out of battle, would make me very enthused. Or things like the "Knight's Walk" tactic of using Spring Attack, and that sort of thing.
Oh, yes, and I'm going to buck the trend and say that I love Eberron, and I find Eberron adventures in Dungeon useful and good, but these interviews on creating Eberron and so on -- no. Give me useful fluff that's helpful for entwining a character within the setting. I also think that it would be nice if Dragon acted as the vanguard for some of the old settings that people are still interested in. An article a month, perhaps?
$40 is too much for a magazine, I agree; if it were something like $20 or $25, however, I'd certainly obtain a subscription.
Finally, I think that the litmus test for a good issue of Dragon would go something like: "In ten years, when everyone is playing D&D v5.4123, will this still be useful?" I've heard a lot of people talking about how their old issues of Dragon are still chockful of ideas, and I think that the current nature of Dragon is a bit, well, ephemeral; fluff goes a much longer way toward mitigating this than any amount of crunch does.
tassander
First Post
Articles in the vein of the guides to survive anything would be great to see in Dragon. Articles that tell you how to include a specific location in your game, not in terms of NPCs and layouts, but in terms of other factors, like, in a theater, how could I use that giant chandelier or the revolving stage in a fight? DCs for skill-checks, appropriate conditions and so on...
Dark Psion
First Post
I do subscribe to Dragon, but did let my Dungeon subscription run out. Will I let my Dragon run out too??
Why should a person subscribe? A very good question, but here is another, what Value is there in subscribing?
There used to be the Dragon annual, for a while there was a free gaming book, but now a subscriber get none of these. In fact a subscriber does not even get the magazine first! The next issue shipped on Nov 30th, but you watch, it will be on shelves Mon or Tues, while us subscribers won't see it for another week. All of my other magazines for this month are already here, for what I pay for Dragon, it should be as well.
How do you add value to a subscription? Aside from bringing back the annual, using the campaign classics issue as a guide, what about making each issue available in a secure pdf format to subscribers the day it is mailed? When we start talking about it on the message boards, it would be free publicity.
Dragon Content
I agree with a lot of what was said by others. The current Ecology articles are like reading a high school textbook. The last one was Rakshasa, the most manipulative, deceptive and Machiavellian creature in the game, but this article made them seem boring!! "You need a Good and Piercing weapon to hurt them"? No, you need a crossbow, armed with a bolt blessed by a priest true of heart.
The fiction should be blended into articles like these. Look back at the Van Richten Guides from 2e Ravenloft. The main text was written for the "Character", the side bars were for the "Player".
The Class Acts articles are a good idea, they just need to be expanded beyond the core classes. I have been playing a Fighter, Magic-User, Cleric or Thief for years, give me a reason to play an Artificer, Healer, Wilder or Warlock. There has been an explosion of "new" core classes lately, but they have no support! Here is where we NEED those feats & PrCs.
Show me how to USE all those Prestige Classes! How would a Cleric become an Assassin? What would a Psionic Loremaster look like? Make me look at a class in a new way.
Here is a good example, there is a new pdf that adapts the Expanded Psionics rules to D20 Modern. Now with d20 Modern rules, the Soul Knife becomes an Advanced class and I would need to to use the core classes first.
But think about that a moment; A Strong Soul Knife, A Fast Soul Knife, A Tough Soul Knife, A Smart Soul Knife, A Dedicated Soul Knife or a Charismatic Soul Knife. It made me rethink what a Soul Knife was AS a class.
Dragon used to support other games in its Ares Section. I discovered Gamma World in an issue of Dragon magazine. How many people have yet to discover half of the games out there?
I also have to agree that Dragon feels "Dumbed Down", there is so much focus on new gamers, but many of us "old timers" have been there, done that, got it enblazoned on a shield a long time ago. How do you reach both? I like the idea of a campaign setting unique to Dragon magazine.
I also have to say that Dragon NEEDS to be in Wal Mart! It needs to be on news stands. If I left an issue on the counter at work, how many new gamers would that one issue create? I have had people ask me "What is that magazine?" while reading it. If it was on news stands, they could answer their own questions.
Why should a person subscribe? A very good question, but here is another, what Value is there in subscribing?
There used to be the Dragon annual, for a while there was a free gaming book, but now a subscriber get none of these. In fact a subscriber does not even get the magazine first! The next issue shipped on Nov 30th, but you watch, it will be on shelves Mon or Tues, while us subscribers won't see it for another week. All of my other magazines for this month are already here, for what I pay for Dragon, it should be as well.
How do you add value to a subscription? Aside from bringing back the annual, using the campaign classics issue as a guide, what about making each issue available in a secure pdf format to subscribers the day it is mailed? When we start talking about it on the message boards, it would be free publicity.
Dragon Content
I agree with a lot of what was said by others. The current Ecology articles are like reading a high school textbook. The last one was Rakshasa, the most manipulative, deceptive and Machiavellian creature in the game, but this article made them seem boring!! "You need a Good and Piercing weapon to hurt them"? No, you need a crossbow, armed with a bolt blessed by a priest true of heart.
The fiction should be blended into articles like these. Look back at the Van Richten Guides from 2e Ravenloft. The main text was written for the "Character", the side bars were for the "Player".
The Class Acts articles are a good idea, they just need to be expanded beyond the core classes. I have been playing a Fighter, Magic-User, Cleric or Thief for years, give me a reason to play an Artificer, Healer, Wilder or Warlock. There has been an explosion of "new" core classes lately, but they have no support! Here is where we NEED those feats & PrCs.
Show me how to USE all those Prestige Classes! How would a Cleric become an Assassin? What would a Psionic Loremaster look like? Make me look at a class in a new way.
Here is a good example, there is a new pdf that adapts the Expanded Psionics rules to D20 Modern. Now with d20 Modern rules, the Soul Knife becomes an Advanced class and I would need to to use the core classes first.
But think about that a moment; A Strong Soul Knife, A Fast Soul Knife, A Tough Soul Knife, A Smart Soul Knife, A Dedicated Soul Knife or a Charismatic Soul Knife. It made me rethink what a Soul Knife was AS a class.
Dragon used to support other games in its Ares Section. I discovered Gamma World in an issue of Dragon magazine. How many people have yet to discover half of the games out there?
I also have to agree that Dragon feels "Dumbed Down", there is so much focus on new gamers, but many of us "old timers" have been there, done that, got it enblazoned on a shield a long time ago. How do you reach both? I like the idea of a campaign setting unique to Dragon magazine.
I also have to say that Dragon NEEDS to be in Wal Mart! It needs to be on news stands. If I left an issue on the counter at work, how many new gamers would that one issue create? I have had people ask me "What is that magazine?" while reading it. If it was on news stands, they could answer their own questions.
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Well, I DO buy Dragon and occasionally Dungeon as well, but there is one thing that I just flip right the hell over.
Add my voice in with the anti fiction crowd. I have two shelves full of used paperbacks of all manner of genres.
Other than that I find Dragon to be a useful resource. Last issue with the sewers and what not was particularly good and if this month keeps up the trend I just might break down and get me a subscription.
Add my voice in with the anti fiction crowd. I have two shelves full of used paperbacks of all manner of genres.
Other than that I find Dragon to be a useful resource. Last issue with the sewers and what not was particularly good and if this month keeps up the trend I just might break down and get me a subscription.
Mark Oliva
First Post
My answers probably won't help much because they probably go against the tide of the majority's wishes, but here goes.
I was a Dragon subscriber for many years and a Dungeon subscriber for a few.
I quit buying Dungeon because I write my own adventures, and I never got anything from Dungeon that I needed or used, although I thought the content was of very good quality. You probably can't win me for Dungeon, no matter how good you make it.
Dragon is another matter. I certainly would buy it again, it it had any substantial amount of material that interested me. The crunchy stuff does not interest me at all. If I need monsters, spells, prestige classes, etc., I make my own. When I look at Dungeon, I skip such material, which doesn't leave my a lot to read.
On the other hand, artticles that deal with campaign meta-issues, running and building campaigns, historical lore in campaigns, etc., could draw me back to Dragon, while probably driving hordes of other readers away.
I do look at Dragon now and then (Dungeon never), but I cen't remember the last time I saw a Dragon with something in it that I read rather than looked at.
Mark Oliva in Bavaria
Editor & Webmaster, the Vintyri Project (TM)
[ mailto:info@vintyri.com ]
Internet: [ http://www.vintyri.com/]
I was a Dragon subscriber for many years and a Dungeon subscriber for a few.
I quit buying Dungeon because I write my own adventures, and I never got anything from Dungeon that I needed or used, although I thought the content was of very good quality. You probably can't win me for Dungeon, no matter how good you make it.
Dragon is another matter. I certainly would buy it again, it it had any substantial amount of material that interested me. The crunchy stuff does not interest me at all. If I need monsters, spells, prestige classes, etc., I make my own. When I look at Dungeon, I skip such material, which doesn't leave my a lot to read.
On the other hand, artticles that deal with campaign meta-issues, running and building campaigns, historical lore in campaigns, etc., could draw me back to Dragon, while probably driving hordes of other readers away.
I do look at Dragon now and then (Dungeon never), but I cen't remember the last time I saw a Dragon with something in it that I read rather than looked at.
Mark Oliva in Bavaria
Editor & Webmaster, the Vintyri Project (TM)
[ mailto:info@vintyri.com ]
Internet: [ http://www.vintyri.com/]
Brown Jenkin
First Post
I don't know whether I am part of your demographic or not. I have been playing D&D since about 1980. I played OD&D and 1e but gave up with 2e. At that time I subscribed to Dragon and loved it. I even kept subscribing for awhile after I stoped playing. When 3e came out I started playing again and loved it. I bought both Dragon and Dungeon. When 3.5 came out I felt betrayed and haven't bought anything 3.5 from anyone and gave up Dragon at the same time. This is not to say that I couldn't be pursuaded to buy again but it will never happen if the magazine remains 3.5 crunch only and a marketing gimik for each new WotC release. Now if I haven't lost you yet I am not asking for droping 3.5 crunch and paying atention to what is new. As other have pointed out many old issues are still usable today because of fluf. So to get me to subscribe I would like to see:
Articles with more fluf, less crunch. I have no need for 10,000+ feats and PrCs.
Articles about how to play, not just how to exploit the rules.
Old ecology articles that described the ecology, with the crunch in sidebars.
Less fiction, few better stoiries that relate to something else in the issue.
Better balance between the WotC settings (Just because Eb is the new thing WotC is pushing doesn't mean you should drop FR and GH).
Critical reviews of new WotC books, not just theme issues pushing them.
Articles and reviews about 3rd party d20/OGL material.
Now I understand you are trying to keep with the current system but as many others have pointed out even those playing 3.5 are fed up with the crunch. I certainly wouldn't ask you to not support the current rules, but there are ways to do it that can attract even those who don't need/want crunch. There is more to D&D than just rules. I would love to have a players magazine that is about the genre in general.
Articles with more fluf, less crunch. I have no need for 10,000+ feats and PrCs.
Articles about how to play, not just how to exploit the rules.
Old ecology articles that described the ecology, with the crunch in sidebars.
Less fiction, few better stoiries that relate to something else in the issue.
Better balance between the WotC settings (Just because Eb is the new thing WotC is pushing doesn't mean you should drop FR and GH).
Critical reviews of new WotC books, not just theme issues pushing them.
Articles and reviews about 3rd party d20/OGL material.
Now I understand you are trying to keep with the current system but as many others have pointed out even those playing 3.5 are fed up with the crunch. I certainly wouldn't ask you to not support the current rules, but there are ways to do it that can attract even those who don't need/want crunch. There is more to D&D than just rules. I would love to have a players magazine that is about the genre in general.
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Erik, thanks for as ever including the fans in your process. You made Dungeon into the most valuable resource I have for my games, and I don't know, maybe you can do something with Dragon.
jmucchellio summed it up, though. Every time I look at an issue of Dragon, I'm reminded of some article back in issue 87. That's not a BAD thing, in and of itself. I learned how to run this game from Dragon back in the day, and the new DMs coming up could probably use the same advice I got. But I don't need to read it again.
Dragon just doesn't offer me any value. The only issue I've purchased since the 80's is 310 -- so I could get the DM's screens.
I don't NEED the advice Dragon has to offer, I have no interest in proliferating PrC's or feats or spells, I run homebrew campaigns exclusively so every page on a WotC setting is pretty much wasted, and if I want to read fiction I'll get a book.
I will be quite surprised if your revisions to Dragon make me want to purchase it. But I'm probably a long way from your target market...
jmucchellio summed it up, though. Every time I look at an issue of Dragon, I'm reminded of some article back in issue 87. That's not a BAD thing, in and of itself. I learned how to run this game from Dragon back in the day, and the new DMs coming up could probably use the same advice I got. But I don't need to read it again.
Dragon just doesn't offer me any value. The only issue I've purchased since the 80's is 310 -- so I could get the DM's screens.
I don't NEED the advice Dragon has to offer, I have no interest in proliferating PrC's or feats or spells, I run homebrew campaigns exclusively so every page on a WotC setting is pretty much wasted, and if I want to read fiction I'll get a book.
I will be quite surprised if your revisions to Dragon make me want to purchase it. But I'm probably a long way from your target market...
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