Why a rapier is bad for an adventurer

[Horwath]

And hope you roll high for initiative.

pike for long hallways, halfspear for other situations.

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

Video clips is the worst way of communication in the human history, so of course I didn't waste my time watching it.

But from a dungeon rational perspective, I don't really see why repeatedly poking beings deep into their sensory organs with a rapier is a worse combat method than slashing them with a heavy sword or axe.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

The argument is that the rapier is long and nimble and thus ideal in one vs one combat because one can keep the opponent at a distance.
The issue with multiple opponents is that with a thrusting weapon pulling the weapon out of the others body is an extra step as compared to a cut (particularly draw cuts) and it is also more likely that a thrust blade will get stuck in the opponent than a cut and thus the thrust weapon can be slower to bring back in to line to defend against another aggressor.

There is also the argument that the rapier blade not being a great cutter, the opponent could simply grab the blade, get inside the point and cut up the rapier wielder with a shorter more cutting focused weapon. Especially in confined spaces.

 

[Mannahnin]

The obvious weapon for a dungeon crawler is a pike. It combines long reach and thrusting action (because you'll often have limited space preventing you from taking a swing); a pike is perfect for holding back a monster in a narrow tunnel.

Your sidearm would be a short sword, something to use at close quarters when a foe gets past the pointy stick. It would probably acquire some morbid slang name, because if a monster is close enough that you need the short sword, your odds of survival are... not good.

Crossbows would be the ranged weapon of choice. Again, they work better in tight spaces than other ranged weapons, and pack a lot of punch for Large-sized foes.

I can't see either a rapier or a broadsword getting much use. It's not that they're bad weapons, they're just designed for very different forms of combat.

According to Wikipedia, a pike was typically 3-7 meters long. Have you ever tried carrying a 9+ foot pole indoors? Can you imagine how difficult it would be to manuever through doors, around corners, and being unable to point the pike up because the ceiling is too low? Pikes were also designed to be used in formation rather than small skirmishes like D&D combat usually has. A pike would be a terrible weapon for a dungeon because it's so unwieldy. You're right though, it's great for holding back a monster in a narrow tunnel. As an adventurer, good luck getting to all the obstacles and setting up that pike though.

Right. Spear rather than pike, but yes, otherwise I'm entirely in agreement with Dausuul. And to a large extent so is 1E AD&D, if you use the actual scale and weapon space requirement rules (see DMG p10, PH p38). Spears and short swords let you get six adventurers in two ranks fighting effectively to the front in a typical 10' corridor.

Of course, by the time the rapier got popular in D&D, a lot of people's games were much less dungeon-focused.

 

[aco175]

If the rapier only did 1d6 damage, they would likely just go away.

didn't they once call rapiers elven thinblades. Word must have gotten out on them come 5e.

 

[Arnie_Wan_Kenobi]

There was I time when I could tell you where the word rapier came from and now I cannot, at least not without looking it up.
The bastard sword was as far as I know a D&D name for the longsword with the regular knightly sidearm being what is nowadays referred to as an arming sword.

That's how I learned it too. I took a "European Longsword" class via local community college...(does math, winces) TWENTY years ago, and one of the first things they did was have us un-learn and re-learn the correct terms. I was shocked that what 1E/2E called a "Bastard Sword" IS a longsword (or hand-and-a-half, but rarely).

Edit (clarity): I THINK they taught "broadsword" for what D&D calls a "longsword," but...it was twenty years ago.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Well, a basket hilted highland broadsword is exclusively one-handed, on account of the hilt.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

That's how I learned it too. I took a "European Longsword" class via local community college...(does math, winces) TWENTY years ago, and one of the first things they did was have us un-learn and re-learn the correct terms. I was shocked that what 1E/2E called a "Bastard Sword" IS a longsword (or hand-and-a-half, but rarely).

Edit (clarity): I THINK they taught "broadsword" for what D&D calls a "longsword," but...it was twenty years ago.

I do not have the old D&D manuals but my impression was the D&D broadsword is what is now referred to as an arming sword.
Whereas what are now (in historical circles) as broadswords are weapons that are also descended from the arming sword with similar hilts and guards as rapiers but beefier blades more suited for cutting. I believe at the time the English referred to these military swords as great swords or war swords.

 

[Arnie_Wan_Kenobi]

I do not have the old D&D manuals but my impression was the D&D broadsword is what is no referred to as an arming sword.
Whereas what are now (in historical circles) as broadswords are weapons that are also descended from the arming sword with similar hilts and guards as rapiers but beefier blades more suited for cutting. I believe at the time the English referred to these military swords as great swords or war swords.

Yeah, "Broadsword" was always an infuriatingly vague term in 1E/2E. I played at tables where "broadsword" was interpreted as "one handed sword with edge on both sides of blade that gets wider toward the hilt" and that interpreted "broadsword" as "sabre" and that interpreted "broadsword" and "basket-hilt curving blade bigger than a sabre."

 

[gorice]

Less an argument about whether OMGz broadswords is a better weapon and would be picked over rapier, and more about basis for these kinds of positions.

I'm familiar with this particular channel; it makes the rounds among HEMA & martial reconstructionist devotees-- one really has to take their opinions on fuzzy-and-not-very-clear medieval & renaissance manuscripts with a grain of salt.

As alluded briefly by Ungainlytitan above, the rapier evolved out of very specific circumstances; it was not strictly speaking a "military" weapon like a broadsword was. For the time period and purposes it was used, it did its job quite well.

OK, but, I'm siding with George Silver on this one. Rapiers are lamo weapons for poseurs. They were popular because it was easy for an unskilled person to kill someone with one in a duel, and had no other virtues.

I always house rule a saber. Same stats as a raiper but does slashing damage. Plus sabers are where it's at is what I learned from A Mighty Fortress back in my 2e days.

They really did the scimitar dirty in 5e. Why is it so expensive if it doesn't even get a d8? Why is it 'light' when you already have daggers and shortswords?

Bring back the 2d4 weapons from AD&D!