Why all the hate for Turn Undead?

[Stormonu]

So how to design a more playable version of Detect Alignment? Clearly it's important to the paladin class due to the paladin's code and the potential loss of the class by the character permanently, if they don't stay within the Lawful/Good alignment.

For my games, I just use the Evil subtype. That evil Baron? He doesn't register on the evildar (but he might let slip something if he fails his Bluff vs. your Sense Motive). That Demon with the Evil subtype though? You can hear the pinging the next dungeon over.

For me, that's well and enough.

As for Turn Undead, I'm fine with it being an optional cleric ability. If it fits the PC it's fine as a specialty or spell. I don't think every cleric should be saddled with it.

 

[Greg K]

I don't want turn undead to go away. I just don't want every cleric turning undead if it does not make sense for a deity's domains. I am disappointed that the base Channel Divinity Power is, now, healing. As spells, I can limit them as appropriate to the campaign either to certain domains or spell lists by just telling a player it is not available to a given cleric by leaving it off the spell list. In other campaigns, I can limit access to certain healing spells if the healing deity grants minor access to clerics of allied deities, but not others while saving more powerful heals and cures for their own clerics.

 

[BobTheNob]

Why the turn undead hate? Well, let me tell you about our 4e cleric.

The player said "I want this cleric to be an undead hunter and healer". He had an objective and an image of what he wanted. Good for him. So he tralled every feat he could get, picked the right god, got as many extra channel divinities he could yada yada.

Well, we had two undead fights in particular and hit an interesting problem. As a DM, I found myself wondering what the point of using undead was. This character had SUCH a profound effect on the encounter that undead had become...irrelevant. It was nigh on pointless including them, unless I put so darn many in or deliberately doctored the encounter against the character (For the record, I didnt do either of these things, its just bad DM'ing). So, the undead encounter just stopped.

The player ended up upset because there wasnt enough undead encounters, so I put in some tokens just to keep him happy. What the? One of the most iconic monsters in the D&D (nay Fantasy) spectrum reduced to marginal, pointless side encounters? I was not at all fond of this situation.

But it wasnt the players fault, nor was it the 4e cleric necessarily. It was the concept that the subset of creatures should consistently fall victim to such potent capability confined to one class. You end up with
a) undead fight, with reasonable numbers of opponents and undead on par with other creatures, with cleric in the party = white wash the enemy
b) undead fight, with reasonable numbers of opponents and undead on par with other creatures, with no cleric in the party = appropriate challenge
c) undead fight, with un-reasonable numbers of opponents and undead above par compared to other creatures, with cleric in the party = appropriate challenge
d) undead fight, with un-reasonable numbers of opponents and undead above par compared to other creatures, with no cleric in the party = far too challenging

So either undead are too hard to handle and you MUST have a cleric, or they are perfectly well thought out but pointless if you do have a cleric.

Turn undead has never made sense to me, and doesnt start making sense till you start reigning in its power/

 

[Kobold Stew]

I think in the larger context of the class, the current rule is sound. It's not complete, but it's certainly coherent.

1. With the existence of the Priest background and the Acolyte and Healer specializations, a lot of the Cleric niche has been eroded. You now don't need to be a Cleric (or Paladin, etc.) to receive divine power or have a divine function. What Clerics do best is deal with Undead, and that's potentially awesome.

2. Turn Undead is the only spell that's always prepared, and it doesn't count against spells memorized. It's easier for the designers to tune that mechanism (adding spell slots or taking them away), I feel. Indeed, it reveals the clunkiness of Channel Divinity, which overlaps with Cure Light Wounds significantly.

3. Thematically, I really like that the gods all agree that there's something *wrong* about the undead -- I think the elf gods and Yollanda and whatever are right to empower their clerics to rebuke zombies invading the forest.

4. The most awkward aspect is the 25 hp limit. I'd prefer to see it scale (say, 2hd equivalent per level, always starting with the weakest -- get rid of a Vampire's minions, say, or a third of a reasonable encounter. It doesn't necessarily destroy them, but it could shape the battlefield, making it a tactical controller-type ability requiring persistent maintenance rather than a special undead-killer.

5. Finally, one thing I've not seen said is that there is (obviously?) going to be a Greater Control Undead Spell (at 4th Level?) to target higher hit point targets.

 

[zoroaster100]

I prefer having turn undead as a spell and not forcing all clerics to have this power.

 

[Li Shenron]

Another thing about making it a spell is that then turn undead can benefit from the hinted changes about making spells scale by slot instead of caster level. What we are seeing in the current spell is no scaling, because they haven't introduced that mechanic. Once they do, it will probably be true that turn undead cast from a higher level slot will handle tougher undead, while the 1st level variety will continue to be limited to zombies and their ilk.

This could be a good solution. I am a bit afraid however if they still want to make spell scale, because the text that hinted at scaling spells was removed from the last playtest material.

 

[Li Shenron]

So either undead are too hard to handle and you MUST have a cleric, or they are perfectly well thought out but pointless if you do have a cleric.

This isn't a problem with Turn Undead concept, it's a problem on how it is designed to work in a specific edition.

You could have a similar problem with a lot of other things in the game: if poorly designed, maybe the Rogue's trapfinding skills make traps pointless if you have a Rogue and too hard if you haven't, maybe the Wizard's abilities to sort out illusions, maybe the Ranger's favored enemies mechanics and so on.

I don't think you just eliminate something from the game because a previous edition didn't design it well enough; instead, you work your designer's bottom off so that in next edition it works better.

There is no reason to believe that TU is intrinsecally impossible to design like everything else.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Turn Undead is a wonderful role-playing opportunity demoted to a magical attack. I like magical attacks but we already have those. Any little clichéed scene that can function as an easy role-playing excercise must be preserved. Who wouldn't rather make a Anthony Hopkins impression than roll on a chart (for this too).

 

[BobTheNob]

This isn't a problem with Turn Undead concept, it's a problem on how it is designed to work in a specific edition.

You could have a similar problem with a lot of other things in the game: if poorly designed, maybe the Rogue's trapfinding skills make traps pointless if you have a Rogue and too hard if you haven't, maybe the Wizard's abilities to sort out illusions, maybe the Ranger's favored enemies mechanics and so on.

I don't think you just eliminate something from the game because a previous edition didn't design it well enough; instead, you work your designer's bottom off so that in next edition it works better.

There is no reason to believe that TU is intrinsecally impossible to design like everything else.

Yes, but the next sentence after what you quoted was ...

Turn undead has never made sense to me, and doesnt start making sense till you start reigning in its power

So the problem with turn undead isnt the concept, its the implementation. But everyone is seeing that. Thats why the (4e) essentials TU was FAR more tuned down from the PHB variant, and even the PHB variant got a decent nerf at one stage.

Now we are looking at 5e and its been relegated to a fairly ehhh 1st level spell. Thats not "turn-undead hate", thats reining it in to the point that its not going to marginilise undead...Yay

 

[Wayfarer]

I don't want turn undead to go away. I just don't want every cleric turning undead if it does not make sense for a deity's domains. I am disappointed that the base Channel Divinity Power is, now, healing..

Perhaps the solution would be to have the at-will divine power chosen, and then it could be deity-dependent. Some might choose healing, others TU. Likely other options too.