Why all the ritual hate?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This would be a problem because the wizard player would not participate in combat. And even if he did, the ritual, would not matter gameplay wise (as a meaningful choice). For rituals, to be meaningful choices, you have to insert them as interactive parts of the whole game design structure.

That depends on the specifics of the implementation. if the caster has to roll a check each round and can decide between making attacks or progressing the ritual, he is highly involved in the combat.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

*snip*

pemerton? You're still around?

 

[pemerton]

pemerton? You're still around?

The last year's been pretty busy with work and a second daughter. But I had a bit of spare time this afternoon so thought I'd drop by!

The place doesn't seem to have changed that much - a lot of familiar names saying familiar things, and Lost Soul still having just about the highest insight-per-post ratio of anyone on the boards (present company excepted, of course!).

 

[AllisterH]

Continuing an actual look at what rituals are available....

Rituals at Level 13 (wait...there ARE no level 13 rituals...weird.) level 14 I have no problems with.
Astral Guide
Control Weather (with all the discussion about casting time, does this mean people in previous editions thought Control Weather was a useless spell with its 10 minute CT?)
Eye of Warning
Lich Transformation
Masking Shroud
Planar Sending
Primal Prison
Ritual of Retrieval
Scramble Portal
Sentinel Eye
Telepathic Bond
Time Ravager
Voicecatcher Veil
Walk Crossroads
Waterborn
Whispers of the Edifice (again, yes, it's on both lists)

Rituals I do have a problem with
Corpse Gate - I actually don't have a problem with the cost or even the casting time . My problem is that the focus is consumed after each casting meaning that you eventually can't use the same body.

View Location - No two words about it...this blows. Really, the main thing you need to change is the duration as rounds are simply not enough time given the costs for scrying rituals PLUS the relative effectiveness of the ANTI-scrying rituals.

Whispers of the Edifice - Again, I really, really want better examples and avice on running divination rituals...this ritual I find really, REALLY overpowered since, this ritual forces the room to ANSWER any question since its creation...That's a LONG time .

One thing I think would encourage more ritual use is if the DM actually uses them. In my campaigns, THIS fact plus the fact that the party sees the ritual system as a group endeavour since you can use AID other PLUS so many rituals help the entire party means that the cost was shared by the entire group, meant that rituals at every level get used.

Things like Status, Telepathic Bond get cast after every extended rest, rituals involving movement such as Trailblaze and Eagle's Flight get (ab)used as it helps that the party sees the DM using and abusing rituals against them.

"How did the bad guys know we were coming"
"well, you tripped multiple warding sensors AND they then scryed on you....

"How come we couldn't find the treasure"
"Well, they used the Hide Object ritual and nobody bothered using a ritual to find it...so..them's the breaks".

 

[tyrlaan]

You seem to be arguing that magic can never trump skills, but this is one of the problems that the current ritual system has. Wizards need to have a place that they can shine, too. Fly can replace athletics, and Speak With Dead can replace information gathering. But Fly doesn't replace the Rogue's knowledge of what is over that chasm, or the Fighter's ability to barricade the doors so that the ritualist has a few moments to complete their ritual. Speak With Dead doesn't replace the Rogue's ability to identify what the corpse is talking about when they say "The man in the yellow hat," and it doesn't replace the Fighter's ability to keep the undertaker distracted while you work on the corpse.

And if you need to cross the chasm and you can't use Fly for some reason, you can use Athletics (a less reliable way to do it). If you can't Speak With Dead for some reason, you can use Streetwise (a less reliable way to do it).

Firstly, I think the argument is not that magic should never trump skills, but rather that magic should never *easily* trump skills. If the argument was the former, people would be stating rituals should not exist at all.

Secondly, that last paragraph there is very telling. In your mind, magic is the first/primary solution to a problem. And yes, if that is your mentality you are doomed to be disappointed with the current ritual system. 4e presents a paradigm shift.

Whether you like it or not, 4e attempts to spread the wealth of problem solving across all the players at the gaming table. That means the primary solution to a problem will not always be magic. 4e wants the adventuring party at the edge of a chasm to think about an assortment of solutions instead of just looking at Magey McSwissArmyKnife and waiting for him to sweep the problem away.

4e does not prevent players from relying on magic to solve problems, but it attempts to balance such solutions so rituals are not the end all be all of problem solving. And honestly, most argument I am seeing raised against rituals in this thread don't read like someone saying "rituals don't work because they will never get used to solve a problem", rather they read like someone saying "rituals don't work because they are not the first place players turn when they need to solve a problem."

You were actually giving out information in a way that rewarded the ritual user. Which is great, and encourages ritual use, but a lot of DM's would address this in a binary fashion.

Eh, not a very solid argument for making any point at all really. "A lot" of DMs might use rituals exactly as outlined in the post you quoted.

 

[Votan]

DRAGON #380.

It's an interesting ritual in that, you actually want someone specialized in Thievery doing the ritual since you make a Thievery check (you don't replace it with arcana...). It's BETTER than the 4th level Knock ritual but at the same time, it doesn't totally invalidate having it.

I like this ritual....It allows for magic to be "better" but it does so by working IN CONJUNCTION with the skill.

A hybrid or multiclassed thief/wizard is the type I see picking up this ritual while a single classed wizard would use Knock.

Yes, this is a much more functional idea for a knock spell. Make it so you could cast it on another and you get the ideal of teamwork between the party wizard and rogue to bypass a tough obstacle that neither could handle singly.

For me, most rituals have an appropriate casting time as I believe rituals should be PREPARATION tools. In pre 3e, that's what spells like Water Breathing and Knock were. Rewards for basically determining what the upcoming adventure would be.

Agreed. Water Breathing, in particular, is a good example. It's not a get out of tough spots free option but it can be used to overcome a known obstacle or for a specific objective.

 

[I'm A Banana]

In the first example, the portal was deep in enemy territory, and they had slain anyone who could have given them information. So no, there was pretty much no other way of getting that intel. In the second example, deciphering the language and learning a couple of names was what *enabled* a subsequent History check to be made in the first place. In both circumstances, the rituals were integral to ongoing play.

But they didn't have to be. Again, if the information is important, the DM puts it in front of the PC's either automatically, or as a reward for accomplishing something (combat, skill challenge, whatever). If it's not important, then finding it out isn't going to matter unless the DM decides to make it important.

You imbedded the info in a ritual, but you can probably see at least a few different ways they could've gotten the information without the ritual, if you wanted them to, or if they really wanted to, or even just under a different DM.

In any case KM, your rebuttal does not speak to the original point you made, which is that the space between encounters has been rendered null in 4E, and therefore mechanics which give the players options in those spaces are moot. A whole lot of my campaign takes place in between encounters, and naturally then rituals, skill checks, and simple old-fashioned roleplaying all have their chance to shine. That's what I was trying to demonstrate by example.

That's not quite my original point. I do believe 4e revolves around encounters, that they (both combat and noncombat, but more combat) have a central place in the game, they are the point of conflict, by design if not in every DM's campaign. I think the amount of pages taken up by powers that deal damage alone probably provides evidence for that point, but there's more than that as supporting evidence. This is in contrast to some of the "old school" styles where the dungeon was the central point of conflict, by design if not in every DM's campaign.

Your campaign is different, which is great, and a prime example of D&D's flexibility, but that goes back to my actual point, the very first one that I made in the thread, that rituals are only useful of the DM makes them useful. They can be useful in your game because you make them useful, and not in games that I've played in, because those DM's did not. This is in contrast to a more desirable system, where rituals are, by default, an essential component, where rather than adding effort to include them, you need to add effort to exclude them.

Because if it's an optional rule, it might as well not act like it's a default rule.

Secondly, that last paragraph there is very telling. In your mind, magic is the first/primary solution to a problem. And yes, if that is your mentality you are doomed to be disappointed with the current ritual system. 4e presents a paradigm shift.

I think I've been more than clear that magic should not be a panacea. I've provided at LEAST a half-dozen examples of situations where the roles division means that magic can't handle every problem. I don't know why it is so hard for some people reading my posts to understand the concept, but if people are willing to talk about it, I'll be happy to try to explain it further.

Against certain problems, yes, magic should be the first/primary solution.

In other situations, the non-magical abilities of other classes should be the first/primary solution, and magic should be the less desirable thing to use.

The thing present in the game now isn't usually even considered a solution unless the DM chooses to include them, and even then, is never really the first solution, due to the high gold and time costs.

This is just like roles in combat. In certain cases, the striker is going to be the one you want (against solos or elites, for instance). In other cases, the controller is going to be more your style (against minions, or large groups of closely-knit enemies). In some combats, Defenders will triumph (say, against Brutes), while in others, Leaders will be champs (say, against Artillery). In most battles you're going to have a mix of monster types that let each one shine, and in most adventures you're going to have a mix of challenge types that let the wizard, cleric, thief, and fighter, each shine, in their own way.

The Wizard shines through magic (and so does the Cleric, but no one seems to be arguing that Raise Dead is unfair in the way fly is). Thus, for the challenges in adventures that wizards are meant to overcome (which should not be "all of them," as could be the case in earlier editions, but should also not be "none of them," as can be the case in the current edition), they should be able to overcome them.

I mean, no one seems to be debating that Remove Disease or Raise Dead obviates the need for anyone to take the Heal skill.

Whether you like it or not, 4e attempts to spread the wealth of problem solving across all the players at the gaming table.

As far as the ritual system is concerned, it doesn't do this very well.

That means the primary solution to a problem will not always be magic.

Which is a problem for players who like to do cool things with magic. Given that this is a fantasy RPG, I'd think that would be at least "some of them." Magic should sometimes be the primary solution. The current rituals system doesn't make that feasible unless the DM decides to play it up.

4e wants the adventuring party at the edge of a chasm to think about an assortment of solutions instead of just looking at Magey McSwissArmyKnife and waiting for him to sweep the problem away.

That's part of the problem, though. The choices shouldn't be between "everyone uses whatever skills to do this" and "only some guy with a scroll can do this." With a roles kind of system, the dude with the scroll gets to do his thing, and the dude with the skills gets to do his thing, and they both contribute to solving the problem at hand in their own unique ways.

I mean, an adventuring party doesn't stare long at a party of goblins before figuring out what to do. They head in and sweep the problem away, as a team, each contributing their own strengths. The wizard sweeps away minions. The rogue sweeps away elites. The Leader makes it easier to sweep away enemies. The Defender makes sure you are not swept away.

Why not let the wizard do his thing to fly the party over the chasm, after the Rogue has done recon, the Fighter has secured the area, and the Cleric has prepared to catch everyone if the Wizard fails? Why not let everyone contribute something unique to solving the problem?

most argument I am seeing raised against rituals in this thread don't read like someone saying "rituals don't work because they will never get used to solve a problem", rather they read like someone saying "rituals don't work because they are not the first place players turn when they need to solve a problem."

The first place most people turn to to kill enemies is the Striker.

Does that mean the Striker is doing everything in combat?

Clearly, no.

If, out of combat, the first place most people turn to cross a massive chasm is magic, does that mean that everyone else is doing nothing?

Clearly, no.

 

[AllisterH]

Kamikaze midget, the scenario you listed, CAN be solved by rituals.

Shadow Bridge
Tenser's Lift
Eagle's Flight (and this can be cast at the beginning of the day...)
Walk Crossroads

can all be used to overcome the encounter. They just require forthought on the part of the wizard player. Kind of like how it was in pre 3e when you had to figure out beforehand what were good spells to memorize.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Kamikaze midget, the scenario you listed, CAN be solved by rituals.

Shadow Bridge
Tenser's Lift
Eagle's Flight (and this can be cast at the beginning of the day...)
Walk Crossroads

can all be used to overcome the encounter. They just require forthought on the part of the wizard player. Kind of like how it was in pre 3e when you had to figure out beforehand what were good spells to memorize.

Totally right. A cliff can be overcome by rituals. But why bother with the forethought, the gold, the components, the time, the preparation, when anyone can contribute to a skill challenge to overcome the cliff instead?

 

[AllisterH]

Totally right. A cliff can be overcome by rituals. But why bother with the forethought, the gold, the components, the time, the preparation, when anyone can contribute to a skill challenge to overcome the cliff instead?

Because skill challenges have a risk of failure.

Failing the "overcome the cliff" skill challenge doesn't mean death (unless you think it is appropriate), but IMHO it probably means that instead of taking 10 minutes to overcome the cliff, you lost 4 hours and people lost equipment on the challenge itself.

(Thats how I handle skill challenges failures and that's pretty much textbook of how to handle it by DMG2 rules.)

Indeed...the "overcome the cliff" skill challenge is one where the 10 minute CT of most rituals isn't an issue since, you know, most likely it is TAKING more than 10 minutes ANYWAY if you just "defeat" the encounter using skills alone.

This I think is a bad example actually the more I think about it...Here's a case where even with the CT, the ritual should/would be faster than doing it by a skill challenge.....