D&D 5E Why Are Ability Scores Necessary?

[jmartkdr2]

Assuming 5e - you can almost drop them entirely with little effort. Just bump up proficiency bonuses to start at +5 and end at +11, make expertise a 50% boost and use half proficiency for other stuff that calls for an ability mod. A couple more tweaks here and there and you're good to go.

You'd still have six saving throws, but the real issue there is how swingy those would be rather than the names.

Having said that: the real question is if this is worth the added confusion. Which depends on who' at your table.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Most of computer RPG use their own list of abilities scores. Even I myself I have suggested some times about to add more, acuity (astuteness + perception) and spirit (faith/fate/karma/luck/divine grace + willpower). Why not to publish a Unearthed Arcane book with optional rules to can be used by 3PPs?

 

[Shiroiken]

So, I've been wondering, could DnD be made to work in a similar manner? Has anyone tried anything like that? Perhaps reducing the number of stats would alleviate these sorts of issues, so your Mind stat covers all the spellcasters, or something?

Yes and no. You can twist the core structure of 5E quite a bit and it'll still work This is why so much playtest, 3PP, homebrew, and houserules can be used successfully in 5E (and partly why I love it). In this case you'd have to choose either 2 ability scores (physical and mental) or 4 (Str, Dex, Con, Mind), both of which would have significant impacts to just about all the classes, which would have to be taken into consideration.

This leads to the "no" part of my answer. Eventually you get to the point of questioning if the fix is worse than the problem. More often than not, homebrew and houserules are far too much work to balance than the benefit they're supposed to gain. If you're okay with unbalancing the game, go for it. If you're not, and the issue is severe for you, you are far better off looking into a different system that works towards you preferences more. People need to remember that 5E (and D&D in general) doesn't work for everyone, and there are a lot of really good game systems out there.

 

[Oofta]

While ability scores are kind of a sacred cow in D&D, I don't think they're necessarily a bad one. While no finite set of stats could ever completely define the totality of a person, personally I find ability scores a useful descriptor.

I mean, there are obviously differences between Mike Tyson and Albert Einstein. I don't have a problem with the game representing that.

It doesn't mean Einstein is "better" than Tyson, but I doubt Tyson could ever be a world class physicist no matter how much training he receives.

We could represent those differences using a different system - ability scores range from -5 to +5 for example but I'm not sure it would matter.

Or maybe I'm just missing the entire point.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I did make an effort once, but decided it would be much simpler to play a different game than D&D. I love me some D&D, but other systems do different things better.

Removing or reducing the ability scores or making them separate from attacks and save DCs wouldn't change what DnD does well.

As @Iry said, other games do this better. Use the right tool for the job.

That said, I think we sometimes put too much emphasis on ability scores. There’s nothing wrong with playing a character who doesn’t have the highest score possible in their main stat. A one point difference in an Ability score only matters on 5% of rolls. And once you start getting magical weapons and increase proficiency as you level up, it becomes even less important.

Other games absolutely don't do "this" better. Keep in mind that "this" is "DnD with less or no ability score restrictions on what mechanically works"

Several thoughts:
What not use the Arcane Tradition: Theurgy (seems to fit what you want)
Why not multiclass as a cleric or paladin and use intelligence in place of wisdom
Why not multiclass as a cleric or paladin and don't worry if your wisdom is low, you will still be effective.

I didn't ask for advice on the character. I specifically stated I don't need or want that. That isn't what the thread is about.

As for your MC Rogue/Wizard?
I'm sorry you chose mechanical advantage vs whatever actually made sense character wise.

Oh, keep your elitist BS to yourself.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I'd remove the abilities, and just keep the skills, making Melee attacks, Ranged attacks, Conjuration, Necromancy, Abjuration etc as new skills. You could also add the saves to the new skills as ''magic defenses'' Necromantic defense, Enchantment defense etc. Each skills is then not automatically linked to a stat (since they dont exist)

Then your class, race and background gives you a little more skills proficiency than in regular 5e. The proficiency bonus you would add to a skill roll should also be higher than +2 (maybe +3 to +8?), since you no longer add anything else to the roll.

So the most important thing for you character is your description of it and its proficiency on paper. He's no longer a rogue with high dex, high int, low cha, whatever. He's a rogue proficient in Athletic, Acrobatics, Melee attack, Conjuration, Transmutation, Necromantic defense, Nature and Religion. You just have to describe his actions as ''intelligent and cunning''.

That's a lot more than I'd want to do, tbh, but it isn't a bad idea for someone with a bit more time on their hands.

As @Iry said, other games do this better. Use the right tool for the job.

That said, I think we sometimes put too much emphasis on ability scores. There’s nothing wrong with playing a character who doesn’t have the highest score possible in their main stat. A one point difference in an Ability score only matters on 5% of rolls. And once you start getting magical weapons and increase proficiency as you level up, it becomes even less important.

Sure, but with a lot of classes, MCing would require 4 decent scores, which will lead to being pretty mediocre at everything, which is a cost without any real benefit. MC characters are generally not stronger than single class characters. But beyond that, it's weird as hell that you have to be really smart to be really good at religion or nature checks, as a cleric or druid, etc. There are a lot of problems that come from only having so many points for stats, and everything having to be tied to a stat. Rather than chasing down every single issue and coming up with a solution for each one, I'd rather explore a change to the shared root of the problems.

While ability scores are kind of a sacred cow in D&D, I don't think they're necessarily a bad one. While no finite set of stats could ever completely define the totality of a person, personally I find ability scores a useful descriptor.

I mean, there are obviously differences between Mike Tyson and Albert Einstein. I don't have a problem with the game representing that.

It doesn't mean Einstein is "better" than Tyson, but I doubt Tyson could ever be a world class physicist no matter how much training he receives.

We could represent those differences using a different system - ability scores range from -5 to +5 for example but I'm not sure it would matter.

Or maybe I'm just missing the entire point.

The way I look at it for QfC is, you know how smart Einstein is based on how many mental skills he is expert in, his Archetype, and his traits. Heck, even his contacts would probably reflect the fact that he is a professional intellectual.

In DnD, you've got fewer skills, and a given character knows fewer skills, so I wouldn't necessarily go all the way to removing ability scores completely. Might be better to figure out 3 scores, or decouple attack, AC, and saving throw DC math from ability scores, and make them exclusively pertain to skills.

 

[Tallifer]

Ability scores are fine in Dungeons & Dragons.

Sometimes I just have to accept that my weird roleplaying concept will not translate into a mechanically powerful build (or that the mechanically powerful build will not reflect the story I was thinking of). Like the DAoC Friar or the Bene Gesserit I keep trying to play. (Which is why other games work better for certain characters: Star Wars for Jedi, Dune for Bene Gesserit, DAoC for a Friar.)

P.S. I am sure there is some sort of Nature Wizard on the DMs Guild.

 

[Big Bucky]

Removing or reducing the ability scores or making them separate from attacks and save DCs wouldn't change what DnD does well.

Other games absolutely don't do "this" better. Keep in mind that "this" is "DnD with less or no ability score restrictions on what mechanically works"

I didn't ask for advice on the character. I specifically stated I don't need or want that. That isn't what the thread is about.

Oh, keep your elitist BS to yourself.

Wow, you would probably get more people willing to help you out if you were a little more pleasant.

My point was ability scores are a core part of DND. Taking them out can break the game very easily. But if you want DND without the ability restrictions then just do that. Seems like a weird game to me but knock yourself out.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Wow, you would probably get more people willing to help you out if you were a little more pleasant.

My point was ability scores are a core part of DND. Taking them out can break the game very easily. But if you want DND without the ability restrictions then just do that. Seems like a weird game to me but knock yourself out.

I mean, it's mostly still the same game. Ability scores only seem like a big part of the game. Getting rid of spells would be an exponentially bigger deal.

As for pleasantness, I am not willing to care about pleasantness toward replies to my thread that outright ignore the point of the thread, or dismiss the premises of the thread, etc.

If I wanted to play another game, I would. I even stated that I'm building an entirely different game of my own. Clearly I'm not stuck on dnd. I made a thread about what 5e would look like with fewer, differently focused, or no, ability scores, and asking if anyone had tried it. I'm perfectly "pleasant" to those who replied accordingly.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Perhaps reducing the number of stats would alleviate these sorts of issues, so your Mind stat covers all the spellcasters, or something?

I wished 5e had a 7th stat for spellcaster that you only rolled when you get the spellcasting feature.

- Variant: Awakening (enchance spellcasting or pact magic feature)
When you would gain the above feature, roll 4d6k3 to determine your Power ability. You use this ability modifier to determine your spells DC and your spell attack bonus. When you would be able to increase an ability score, you can instead increase your Power by +2 or another ability score and Power by +1.

This way, you avoid the ''divine spells are Wis, arcanes are Int, and the others are Cha because!'' problem; a character that would gain spells from multiple source (feats, multi-class, ritual caster etc) would be able to use his spells as efficiently, no matter from whence they came.

Innate racial powers and slot-less spells from class features could specify which ability they use instead of rolling for Power, which would only be a stat for spellcasters.