D&D 5E Why Are Ability Scores Necessary?

[dave2008]

I didn't ask for advice on the character. I specifically stated I don't need or want that. That isn't what the thread is about.

My apologies, I just skimmed the OP.

 

[Tallifer]

Could D&D be made to work with fewer, or even no, stats?
Sure. But the stats are one of the things that make D&D D&D. The more you change that? The less D&D you have. Whats the point? If you want to play D&D, play D&D. If you want to play some other game? Then play some other game.

As for your MC Rogue/Wizard?
I'm sorry you chose mechanical advantage vs whatever actually made sense character wise.

Furthermore, a player can always roleplay an Intelligent Wizard as a wise druid. Roleplaying is just talking. And talking can dress up any mechanics with some refluffing.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I mean, it's mostly still the same game. Ability scores only seem like a big part of the game. Getting rid of spells would be an exponentially bigger deal.

As for pleasantness, I am not willing to care about pleasantness toward replies to my thread that outright ignore the point of the thread, or dismiss the premises of the thread, etc.

If I wanted to play another game, I would. I even stated that I'm building an entirely different game of my own. Clearly I'm not stuck on dnd. I made a thread about what 5e would look like with fewer, differently focused, or no, ability scores, and asking if anyone had tried it. I'm perfectly "pleasant" to those who replied accordingly.

How do you model picking up something heavy? Must everyone now have a skill value for every skill so you can kinda-sorta model everything with a check?

How do you model a lithe, quick character from a hulking, powerful one?

These questions go to what ability scores do in game. It's fair to ask how you would model what the game does now with their absence.

Finally, the apparent impetus for your question was a frustration you felt when you wanted to multi-class but didn't want to assign ability scores to follow the rules. That solution doesn't require rewriting 5e to remove ability scores, it just requires talking to your GM.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Furthermore, a player can always roleplay an Intelligent Wizard as a wise druid. Roleplaying is just talking. And talking can dress up any mechanics with some refluffing.

That level of reflavoring is, for me and for many, many, others, wholly unsatisfying.
And also tangential to the point of the thread.

How do you model picking up something heavy? Must everyone now have a skill value for every skill so you can kinda-sorta model everything with a check?

How do you model a lithe, quick character from a hulking, powerful one?

These questions go to what ability scores do in game. It's fair to ask how you would model what the game does now with their absence.

Finally, the apparent impetus for your question was a frustration you felt when you wanted to multi-class but didn't want to assign ability scores to follow the rules. That solution doesn't require rewriting 5e to remove ability scores, it just requires talking to your GM.

My advise is, don’t assign motives to people on a speculative basis, just take them at their word. I gave the character as an example. That’s it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

How do you model picking up something heavy? Must everyone now have a skill value for every skill so you can kinda-sorta model everything with a check?

How do you model a lithe, quick character from a hulking, powerful one?

These questions go to what ability scores do in game. It's fair to ask how you would model what the game does now with their absence.

Skills.

 

[Tonguez]

Absolutely and 5e has effectively done that via Ability = Skill proficiency.

I’ve done hacks where players get 6 points, -3 to + 3 distribution, to spread across any skill, talent or ability they chose - so a PC might define themselves as Mountain climber +2, Axe fighter +1, alpine survivalist +1, Perception +2

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Absolutely and 5e has effectively done that via Ability = Skill proficiency.

I’ve done hacks where players 6 points, -3 to + 3 distribution, to spread across any skill, talent or ability they chose - so a PC might define themselves as good at Mountain climber +2, Axe fighter +1, alpine survivalist +1, Perception +2

If ability scores didn’t govern basic efficacy in combat, a rather large part of the game, I’d be more in favor of ability scores = skills.
I may, as I’ve mentioned, just decouple ability scores from attack, ac, and save dc, values. The problem there is a lack of variance. In my own game, your skills progress rank by rank, and everything that requires rolls is governed by skills, so there is variance there. I don’t love the idea of everyone having the same attack number, for instance.

OTOH, there is the idea of simply having a character choose a Spellcasting stat and a weapons stat, and using that regardless of class. My rogue would, then, just be a Dex/Int character, regardless of secondary class.

Or, shrink stats down to 3, and Mind or Will or whatever governs all spellcasting, and Body governs all weapons use, while a third stat combines con and parts of wisdom and Cha to govern some skills and your hardiness.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Skills.

First, it's worth noting that the 5e rules do not have skill checks, they have ability check to which you can add a proficiency bonus if trained in an applicable skill and the GM approves. In other words, you don't make an athletics check, you make a STR check to which you add your proficiency bonus if trained in athletics.

That said, what you're proposing removes the general 1 of 6 choice the GM makes when adjudicating an action that is uncertain and exchanging it for a 1 of many more choice. This means the GM has a higher mental overhead in play. Further, the skill list as it stands is not very robust -- there's many action declarations that don't fit into a skill very well but still clearly belong to an attribute. So, this approach would probably mean expanding, and tracking, additional skills to paper over those gaps.

Finally, such a change would invalidate compatibility with published 5e products. A GM doing this would have to hack a lot of the material to align the systems. Monster stat blocks, for instance, all are based on abilities.

This is a huge amount of work just to make using the optional multiclass rules a bit more flexible. Why not, instead, approach it as removing the multi-class ability score requirements? If you ask me, they're a throwback to earlier rulesets and not well justified. Nothing breaks if you remove them.

 

[Tallifer]

never mind

 

[Stormonu]

It would be very interesting to build an RPG that is built off keywords, instead of static ability/skill blocks.

For example, imagine if this is what a "Fighter's" character sheet looked like

Muscular
Imposing
Swordplay
Athletic
Chain Mail
Longsword

The "Rogue"

Dexterous
Lockpicker
Backstabber
Stealthy
Blackened blade
Caltrops

The "Wizard"

Learned
Fire Mage
Secretive
Homonculus
Knife


Whenever you needed to make a roll, you might describe your action and the gamemaster would decide if one of your trait applies. Other times, you might want to declare your using a trait to accomplish something. If your trait applies, you roll with advantage or some bonus. If you lack a specific trait, you just roll. If a trait would be detrimental in some way, you roll with disadvantage or some penalty. The difficultly would be a target number assigned by the gamemaster.

Fighter: "Gary gets in the old man's face, grabs the geezer's shirt collar and shouts 'Where are the elves hiding?'"
Gamemaster: "Ok, your Muscular and Imposing traits come into play here, so roll with advantage. Your target is 8, since this guy is pretty old and feeble."

OR

Rogue: "I'm ducking down the alley. Can I get up to the balcony before the guards come by?"
Gamemaster: "Okay, you're Stealthy, but you don't have any particular skill climbing. Make a roll with advantage to remain unseen, but make a regular roll to climb the brick wall. You'll need a 12 on each since the guards are on patrol and you're pressed for time."

OR

Wizard: "I want to examine that strange bottle, is it some sort of potion?"
Gamemaster: Secretly notes that the potion is an ice-based spell, but the Wizard is Learned, so it cancels the negative influence of his Fire Mage trait. "Go ahead and make just a normal roll. You'll need a 15 to figure out what it is."