reapersaurus
Explorer
well, if ANYONE thinks that orcs are by nature evil should have a look at the PHB.
Half-orcs are PC's now.
Half-evil is still evil.
Half-orcs are PC's now.
Half-evil is still evil.
Why are orcs evil?
- Thread starter Yuan-Ti
- Start date
SHARK
First Post
Greetings!
Speaking of the conquest of the America's, reminded me of a paper that I did quite some time ago. Perhaps many of you would find it interesting;
____________________________________________________
Title: Conquest of The New World
By Richard J. Leahy
The Gate Is Closed
The fall of Byzantium in 1453 closed the gate to European trade with the East. The great city of Byzantium, the heir to the glory of ancient Rome, had fallen by siege to the Ottoman Turks. The Muslims now had a stranglehold on all trade to the East. The lords of Europe chaffed under this bitter reality. The Europeans were desperate for a new way to the East, a new trade route to the fabulous wealth of the East: Spices, pepper, silks, fine rugs, and exotic trade goods of all kinds. A new era was about to begin.
The Europeans had reached a certain balance. They were ready to launch the great missions of exploration. Europe had been racked with warfare, plagues, and religious strife. Europe had endured the depredations of the Vikings, the sweeping Mongolian Hordes, and the desperate warfare against the forces of Islam. Now, at last, with the Reconquista complete, and Spain united under Christendom, Europe began to look outwards. Europe had secured itself politically, economically, and religiously. In addition, the Renaissance had awakened in Europe a spirit of adventure, a sense of newness, and expanding opportunities. However, technology also was essential. Europe had the means-Carracks-large, multi-masted ocean-going sailing ships, capable of long, reliable voyages. Nowhere else in the whole world, were all of these prerequisites met- only in Europe.
Thus, from the great court of King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain was the explorer Christopher Columbus sent out to sea. The Portuguese had been the first to launch missions of exploration, and, indeed, had contributed much to the technology and knowledge of sailing, but it was the Spanish who were to stride forward as the leaders in exploration. Spain would rise from the ashes of a war-torn, beleaguered land, to that of an awesomely powerful, and gloriously wealthy empire, which reached far across the world.
Columbus was not literally the first to “discover” the new world, but was the most significant. Previously, the Viking explorer Lief Eriksson, son of the great explorer Erik “The Red”, had founded a small Viking colony in Newfoundland, called by the Vikings “Vineland.” The colony died out, however, and no lasting impact, on either the new world, or the old, has been discovered, or determined. There are some other theories over the years, which have suggested that others, too, have made contact with the old world. Everyone from the Egyptians, to Africans, to the Chinese. Some theories are certainly bizarre, but some have more merit, and point to interesting tidbits of evidence.
The point of Columbus not being literally the discoverer of the new world, but the most significant, is demonstrated by going back to the discussion about the necessary prerequisites for a nation to succeed in a campaign of exploration and colonization. The Vikings, and anyone else, over thousands of years, while they may have “discovered” the new world, and even been assured of some knowledge of it, either didn’t have the resources in wealth and technology to exploit and maintain the colony, or, didn’t care to.
Historically, the Vikings didn’t seem to be overly interested in following in Lief Eriksson’s footsteps, and, in many of the Chinese explorations of the Pacific and Indian Oceans, the Chinese too, were not eager to colonize and exploit discoveries. Thus, the requirement for all of the prerequisites to be present for such a successful campaign. Interestingly, though the largest native empires of the new world had developed a thriving naval trade system through the Caribbean and the coastal waters, no missions of exploration-even fleeting-seem to have been made toward the Old World.
“God, Glory, and Gold.”
The Spanish explorers were a courageous, daring group. These men often thrilled to the expectation of danger, of exploration, of adventure. Many, though, were driven by the lust for gold. Some, too, were motivated by faith. Some genuinely desired the spiritual and temporal betterment of the native peoples that they met. Many others, however, sought only gold and conquest. Some were adventurers who only planned on gaining gold and glory before returning to Spain to be celebrated as a great Conquistador.
The Spanish proceeded to conquer all of Central and South America. The “Requirement” is revealing of Spanish sentiment towards the native peoples. The “Requirement” was an official document, which was to be read to all who stood in the way of the Conquistadors. It reads as follows:
The Requirement
“I, Francisco Pizarro, servant of the high and mighty kings of Castile and Leon, conquerors of barbarian peoples, and being their messenger and Captain, hereby notify and inform you…that God Our Lord, One and Eternal, created Heaven and Earth and a man and a woman from whom you and I and all the people of the world are descended….Because of the great multitude begotten from these over the past five thousand and some years since the world was made…God placed one called Saint Peter in charge over all these peoples….
And so I request and require you … to recognize the Church as your Mistress and as Governess of the World and Universe, and the High Priest, called the Pope, in her name, and His Majesty [king of Spain] in Her place, as Ruler and Lord King….
And if you do not do this … with the help of God I shall come mightily against you, and I shall make war on you everywhere and in every way that I can, and I shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and His Majesty, and I shall seize your women and children, and I shall make them slaves, to sell and dispose of as His Majesty commands, and I shall do all the evil and damage to you that I am able. And I insist that the deaths and destruction that result from this will be your fault.”
The Spanish conquest was savage, and brutal. While the Spaniards more or less were content with the area of Central and South America, they did explore further north, and lightly settle some areas with missions and forts. Later on, with the arrival of the French, Dutch, and especially the English, more European colonies were established.
From the very beginning, plagues and diseases from the Europeans spread to the native populations, which were rapidly decimated. The Europeans originally were trying to find a different route to the East, but instead, found two whole new continents, which they only gradually comprehended just how vast they were. The mountains of gold and silver that the Spanish seized from the Aztecs, the Mayans, and the Incas, was to make Spain a mighty empire, and transform the economies of Europe, and even to effect the economy of China.
The “clash of cultures” began immediately. The Indians had never seen horses; they did not have the wheel, or iron; or gunpowder weapons; yet, they introduced many, many different types of fruits and vegetables to Europe, and beyond. The potato, as well as chocolate, among many others, revolutionized the European diet. The biological exchange was massive. New animals, new foods, new plants, new diseases, were exchanged. Both, in many of these aspects, were to ultimately benefit.
Culturally, the Europeans and Indians were distinctly different in many ways. The Indians did not value gold like the Europeans did. To the Indians, gold was ornamental, and of little value beyond that. The Indians were diverse in government forms, but certainly, when one looks at the Cherokee, the Iroquois, among others, one can see that the Indians did not need to learn of the Greeks or Romans to learn of democratic values. Many Indian tribes had democratic elements, and some, had largely egalitarian and very democratic forms of government, with voting and so forth. Underlying much of this, was a greater measure of respect for different views and opinions.
The Indians religion was diverse, and in many ways was very sophisticated, as in the Mayans and Aztecs. The Indian religions differed greatly, however, from Christianity. The Europeans persecuted the Indians for their pagan religions, and forced them to adopt Christianity. Some tribes, however, willingly embraced Christianity. There continued to be conflict throughout the European expansion.
The Indians concept of land ownership was very different from the Europeans. The Indians “owned” it, loosely, collectively, rather than as individuals. A tribe might claim authority over an area of land, but the whole tribe owned it. One or five percent of the tribe did not own eighty or ninety percent of the land, while the rest of the tribe got what was left. This was another fundamental difference between the European and Indian cultures.
The Europeans continued to tighten their iron grip upon more and more of the Indians land, gradually completing a campaign of racial and cultural genocide. It makes one wonder, “was it inevitable?” The verdict of history seems to be yes. The technologically advanced European culture was too aggressive, too dynamic, and operated on such a fundamentally different foundation as to be totally incompatible, and irreconcilable, with the simpler, Indian cultures. Five centuries and more later, we look back, and can only wonder. We can only wonder, with sadness, Why? and wonder, perhaps,…What if things had been different? The remnants of some tribes, however, have recovered in a few areas. Meanwhile, historians, anthropologists, sociologists and psychologists strive to explore and discover new insights from the Indian cultures of the New World. Interestingly, the Conquest enriched the whole world with elements of Indian cultures. The “clash of cultures” has been about both conquest, and enlightenment.
Authored by: Richard J. Leahy
____________________________________________________
Concerning Orcs? Orcs are evil, and should be exterminated. They are evil and wicked in every manner, eager to wallow in darkness and depravity at every turn. They are evil by nature, by life, and by their dark gods. The only exceptions are to be the precious few individuals that passionately disavow their wicked ways, and kneel before the ways of the Righteous, and sincerely embrace the faith of righteousness. These individuals, and only these, shall be spared the fire and wrath to come.
Such is the typical response of the average Vallorean citizen.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Speaking of the conquest of the America's, reminded me of a paper that I did quite some time ago. Perhaps many of you would find it interesting;
____________________________________________________
Title: Conquest of The New World
By Richard J. Leahy
The Gate Is Closed
The fall of Byzantium in 1453 closed the gate to European trade with the East. The great city of Byzantium, the heir to the glory of ancient Rome, had fallen by siege to the Ottoman Turks. The Muslims now had a stranglehold on all trade to the East. The lords of Europe chaffed under this bitter reality. The Europeans were desperate for a new way to the East, a new trade route to the fabulous wealth of the East: Spices, pepper, silks, fine rugs, and exotic trade goods of all kinds. A new era was about to begin.
The Europeans had reached a certain balance. They were ready to launch the great missions of exploration. Europe had been racked with warfare, plagues, and religious strife. Europe had endured the depredations of the Vikings, the sweeping Mongolian Hordes, and the desperate warfare against the forces of Islam. Now, at last, with the Reconquista complete, and Spain united under Christendom, Europe began to look outwards. Europe had secured itself politically, economically, and religiously. In addition, the Renaissance had awakened in Europe a spirit of adventure, a sense of newness, and expanding opportunities. However, technology also was essential. Europe had the means-Carracks-large, multi-masted ocean-going sailing ships, capable of long, reliable voyages. Nowhere else in the whole world, were all of these prerequisites met- only in Europe.
Thus, from the great court of King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella of Spain was the explorer Christopher Columbus sent out to sea. The Portuguese had been the first to launch missions of exploration, and, indeed, had contributed much to the technology and knowledge of sailing, but it was the Spanish who were to stride forward as the leaders in exploration. Spain would rise from the ashes of a war-torn, beleaguered land, to that of an awesomely powerful, and gloriously wealthy empire, which reached far across the world.
Columbus was not literally the first to “discover” the new world, but was the most significant. Previously, the Viking explorer Lief Eriksson, son of the great explorer Erik “The Red”, had founded a small Viking colony in Newfoundland, called by the Vikings “Vineland.” The colony died out, however, and no lasting impact, on either the new world, or the old, has been discovered, or determined. There are some other theories over the years, which have suggested that others, too, have made contact with the old world. Everyone from the Egyptians, to Africans, to the Chinese. Some theories are certainly bizarre, but some have more merit, and point to interesting tidbits of evidence.
The point of Columbus not being literally the discoverer of the new world, but the most significant, is demonstrated by going back to the discussion about the necessary prerequisites for a nation to succeed in a campaign of exploration and colonization. The Vikings, and anyone else, over thousands of years, while they may have “discovered” the new world, and even been assured of some knowledge of it, either didn’t have the resources in wealth and technology to exploit and maintain the colony, or, didn’t care to.
Historically, the Vikings didn’t seem to be overly interested in following in Lief Eriksson’s footsteps, and, in many of the Chinese explorations of the Pacific and Indian Oceans, the Chinese too, were not eager to colonize and exploit discoveries. Thus, the requirement for all of the prerequisites to be present for such a successful campaign. Interestingly, though the largest native empires of the new world had developed a thriving naval trade system through the Caribbean and the coastal waters, no missions of exploration-even fleeting-seem to have been made toward the Old World.
“God, Glory, and Gold.”
The Spanish explorers were a courageous, daring group. These men often thrilled to the expectation of danger, of exploration, of adventure. Many, though, were driven by the lust for gold. Some, too, were motivated by faith. Some genuinely desired the spiritual and temporal betterment of the native peoples that they met. Many others, however, sought only gold and conquest. Some were adventurers who only planned on gaining gold and glory before returning to Spain to be celebrated as a great Conquistador.
The Spanish proceeded to conquer all of Central and South America. The “Requirement” is revealing of Spanish sentiment towards the native peoples. The “Requirement” was an official document, which was to be read to all who stood in the way of the Conquistadors. It reads as follows:
The Requirement
“I, Francisco Pizarro, servant of the high and mighty kings of Castile and Leon, conquerors of barbarian peoples, and being their messenger and Captain, hereby notify and inform you…that God Our Lord, One and Eternal, created Heaven and Earth and a man and a woman from whom you and I and all the people of the world are descended….Because of the great multitude begotten from these over the past five thousand and some years since the world was made…God placed one called Saint Peter in charge over all these peoples….
And so I request and require you … to recognize the Church as your Mistress and as Governess of the World and Universe, and the High Priest, called the Pope, in her name, and His Majesty [king of Spain] in Her place, as Ruler and Lord King….
And if you do not do this … with the help of God I shall come mightily against you, and I shall make war on you everywhere and in every way that I can, and I shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and His Majesty, and I shall seize your women and children, and I shall make them slaves, to sell and dispose of as His Majesty commands, and I shall do all the evil and damage to you that I am able. And I insist that the deaths and destruction that result from this will be your fault.”
The Spanish conquest was savage, and brutal. While the Spaniards more or less were content with the area of Central and South America, they did explore further north, and lightly settle some areas with missions and forts. Later on, with the arrival of the French, Dutch, and especially the English, more European colonies were established.
From the very beginning, plagues and diseases from the Europeans spread to the native populations, which were rapidly decimated. The Europeans originally were trying to find a different route to the East, but instead, found two whole new continents, which they only gradually comprehended just how vast they were. The mountains of gold and silver that the Spanish seized from the Aztecs, the Mayans, and the Incas, was to make Spain a mighty empire, and transform the economies of Europe, and even to effect the economy of China.
The “clash of cultures” began immediately. The Indians had never seen horses; they did not have the wheel, or iron; or gunpowder weapons; yet, they introduced many, many different types of fruits and vegetables to Europe, and beyond. The potato, as well as chocolate, among many others, revolutionized the European diet. The biological exchange was massive. New animals, new foods, new plants, new diseases, were exchanged. Both, in many of these aspects, were to ultimately benefit.
Culturally, the Europeans and Indians were distinctly different in many ways. The Indians did not value gold like the Europeans did. To the Indians, gold was ornamental, and of little value beyond that. The Indians were diverse in government forms, but certainly, when one looks at the Cherokee, the Iroquois, among others, one can see that the Indians did not need to learn of the Greeks or Romans to learn of democratic values. Many Indian tribes had democratic elements, and some, had largely egalitarian and very democratic forms of government, with voting and so forth. Underlying much of this, was a greater measure of respect for different views and opinions.
The Indians religion was diverse, and in many ways was very sophisticated, as in the Mayans and Aztecs. The Indian religions differed greatly, however, from Christianity. The Europeans persecuted the Indians for their pagan religions, and forced them to adopt Christianity. Some tribes, however, willingly embraced Christianity. There continued to be conflict throughout the European expansion.
The Indians concept of land ownership was very different from the Europeans. The Indians “owned” it, loosely, collectively, rather than as individuals. A tribe might claim authority over an area of land, but the whole tribe owned it. One or five percent of the tribe did not own eighty or ninety percent of the land, while the rest of the tribe got what was left. This was another fundamental difference between the European and Indian cultures.
The Europeans continued to tighten their iron grip upon more and more of the Indians land, gradually completing a campaign of racial and cultural genocide. It makes one wonder, “was it inevitable?” The verdict of history seems to be yes. The technologically advanced European culture was too aggressive, too dynamic, and operated on such a fundamentally different foundation as to be totally incompatible, and irreconcilable, with the simpler, Indian cultures. Five centuries and more later, we look back, and can only wonder. We can only wonder, with sadness, Why? and wonder, perhaps,…What if things had been different? The remnants of some tribes, however, have recovered in a few areas. Meanwhile, historians, anthropologists, sociologists and psychologists strive to explore and discover new insights from the Indian cultures of the New World. Interestingly, the Conquest enriched the whole world with elements of Indian cultures. The “clash of cultures” has been about both conquest, and enlightenment.
Authored by: Richard J. Leahy
____________________________________________________
Concerning Orcs? Orcs are evil, and should be exterminated. They are evil and wicked in every manner, eager to wallow in darkness and depravity at every turn. They are evil by nature, by life, and by their dark gods. The only exceptions are to be the precious few individuals that passionately disavow their wicked ways, and kneel before the ways of the Righteous, and sincerely embrace the faith of righteousness. These individuals, and only these, shall be spared the fire and wrath to come.
Such is the typical response of the average Vallorean citizen.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Last edited:
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Hand of Evil said:
While I am a vehement anti-relativist when it comes to morality, as a practical matter I recognize that morality is defined by the acclaim of the community for the most part. Partly it is habit. Partly it is the deep-rooted 'tribal' instinct of us against them. Partly it is the refusal to think for oneself. This applies even to people we know have more moral courage in their pinky than most can claim in their whole soul.
There was once a young man who met native americans himself and wrote how remarkably intelligent and dignified and civil they were. Later in life he wrote how brutish and savage they were, but that was after involvement in some horrific genocidal wars had proven to be very profitable.
That man was George Washington.
Last edited:
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
Darraketh said:
Chaotic Good.
Lawful Good.
Last edited:
arcady said:
Drug use. Have you seen the ads on TV, if you use drugs you could be supporting terrorism! Nothing about if you buy gas you could be supporting terrorism (something like 20% of our gas comes from Iraq).
Gez
First Post
Ah, alignment threads. This always degenerate into trolls.
To feed the debate before the thread is closed, I advise everyone to look at this excellent site:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/BiblicalMorality/index.shtml
I especially like the "Family value" and "Status of Women" parts.
To feed the debate before the thread is closed, I advise everyone to look at this excellent site:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/BiblicalMorality/index.shtml
I especially like the "Family value" and "Status of Women" parts.
Roland Delacroix said:
While I respect some of the more philosophical observations about good & evil, my position was based on a much more basic logic. The PHB says "Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killling others" (etc).
I just worked backwards from there to try & understand what would make a society as a whole share that tendency.
If you want to talk real world comparisons, I submit that (thankfully) individuals raised in (close to) the abusive circumstances I describe nevertheless see daily examples of more forgiving attitudes among members of their community &/or the daily news headlines. I believe it is this difference that allows people in our world to overcome the circumstances of the upbringing to the extent that whole communities don't tend to live by killing, raping & pillaging their neighbours around them. In the western world at least.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
The "metagaming" reason why orcs are evil is quite easy:
It is fantasy. We try to reflect certain human behaviours to other "alien" creautures.
Thus, Elves are (Chaotic) Good, and Orcs are evil.
Ingame: Orcs are evil because:
a) they are the chosen species of an evil god
b) they live in barbaric cultures and can (or believe they can) only survive by looting and killing.
c) if you see it from an "evolutionary" point of view: If using violence is a good way to be succesful, it is better if you like violence, if you enjoy it. (and that is considered evil)
d) Orcs tend to live seperated from the other species, they like "privacy". This does not apply for those tribes who live from looting towns, they tend to attack npnorcs. So, the typical orc to be seen is evil.
In my new campaign "world" (a space setting mainly using DragonStar Rules), Orcs are a species divided in single clans (a bit like the Nietzscheans in Andromda. Other aspecs for them are from the Maghog).
Several of them are Chaotiv Evil - these are the most present, since they often make raids and are "famous" pirates.
But later in the campaign history, a part of these orcs will "convert" to Lawful Neutral - they are chose by a Lawful Neutral god to be their instrument to regain order to the galaxy (some Fomorians think it is a good idea to conquer the plane by "creating" native outsiders and so on...)
Mustrum Ridcully
It is fantasy. We try to reflect certain human behaviours to other "alien" creautures.
Thus, Elves are (Chaotic) Good, and Orcs are evil.
Ingame: Orcs are evil because:
a) they are the chosen species of an evil god
b) they live in barbaric cultures and can (or believe they can) only survive by looting and killing.
c) if you see it from an "evolutionary" point of view: If using violence is a good way to be succesful, it is better if you like violence, if you enjoy it. (and that is considered evil)
d) Orcs tend to live seperated from the other species, they like "privacy". This does not apply for those tribes who live from looting towns, they tend to attack npnorcs. So, the typical orc to be seen is evil.
In my new campaign "world" (a space setting mainly using DragonStar Rules), Orcs are a species divided in single clans (a bit like the Nietzscheans in Andromda. Other aspecs for them are from the Maghog).
Several of them are Chaotiv Evil - these are the most present, since they often make raids and are "famous" pirates.
But later in the campaign history, a part of these orcs will "convert" to Lawful Neutral - they are chose by a Lawful Neutral god to be their instrument to regain order to the galaxy (some Fomorians think it is a good idea to conquer the plane by "creating" native outsiders and so on...)
Mustrum Ridcully
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Reading The Simarillion greatly increased my respect for Tolkien with respect to racial characteristics and elves.
Tolkien's Elves are not inherently Good. It would be more fair to say that being extremely long-lived with poor reproductive rates, the march of history has culled the vicious & impulsive and preserved those who are wise.
The Elves that still linger to the end of the Third Age are exceptional and were not the norm of earlier ages.
Similar Threads
