D&D 5E Why are we still stuck with divine casters knowing all spells?

[Blackbrrd]

To be fair the Cleric wasn't particularly limited by sphere (he only didn't have access to some spheres that were traditionally druid spells). The Cleric had all the armour, decent weapons and virtually all the Spheres, it was only the Priests of particular gods that were introduced in the Priest Handbook that were more balanced and had a more limited sphere selection based on what weapons and armour they had access to.

You are right.

It's actually me that's the confused one, some years since I played 2e. Anyway, my point still stands, the 3e cleric is a beefed up version of the 2e cleric, having some of the stuff from the priest (domains - but now as extras, and domain powers - also extra). I think something close to the 2e priest is a better alternative than the 3e cleric for the 5e cleric.

 

[Ratskinner]

I think the approach I described works better. It's easy to do.

First divvy up spells into spheres like 2E. Each cleric has a set of spheres that are normal and denied. Simple so far. Each deity has some spheres that are augmented, which can be like one or more metamagic feats from 3E, or they might be considered a level lower for memorization purposes. Lots of options here and it doesn't have to be complicated. The weakened spheres are just the inverse, use inverse metamagic feats, or consider 1 level higher for casting.

With separate spell lists for each deity, you have to individually consider each spell on the list for each deity, then do the same when spell supplements come out. That's a much less maintainable approach.

Doing it by sphere, rather than individual spell makes it a bit more palatable.

As much as I love 2e, spheres were one area that seemed awfully fiddly, in retrospect. Still, if we're going to have Clerics, I'd rather have some limitations on them and their spell choices. Spheres give a lot of bang for the buck, in that regard.

 

[Klaus]

Whether spheres or spell lists, the problem (automatic access to all spells throughout all new books) remains, unless the cleric and the druid get a "Spells Known" limitation.

 

[DonAdam]

I'd like to see cleric rituals tied to holy places (including impromptu holy places). Let them be sorcerers when they're out adventuring but be able to work some righteous mojo in their gods' temples.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I like the concept. The problem I have with clerics is less that they have the selection of all cleric spells to start (since there aren't that many spells), it's that every new supplement creates an ever-increasing number of spells. Yeah, you can ban supplements, but cleaner is to do a "spells known" list for clerics in your campaign. Varying them by domain/sphere is a great way to make different gods have different clerics.

 

[Ratskinner]

Whether spheres or spell lists, the problem (automatic access to all spells throughout all new books) remains, unless the cleric and the druid get a "Spells Known" limitation.

How so?

Each Cleric would choose a deity (or religion). Said deity would grant access to some spheres of spells, but certainly not all of them. New spells and spheres appearing in new splat wouldn't retroactively add to previous deities' profiles. I would presume that individual DMs/tables could generate their own deities with new profiles.

The Class, of course, would gain access to new spells, but the characters wouldn't.

 

[SirAntoine]

Actually, divine casters should have access to all their spells. I sympathize with how much effort there can be to a beginner to pick from the lists, but after a while they'll get the hang of it and also appreciate having so many options. Divine casters rely on the spells their gods know, not which they know. They pray for the spells, to be able to cast them a particular number of times. This IS the way of things for them, and it's also one reason (that has been forgotten for the sake of balance) that wizard, or arcane spells, should go back to being so much more powerful in general (in all other areas than divination and healing, for the most part).

 

[SirAntoine]

Paladins and rangers getting spells at 1st level is also ridiculous because they are warriors, unlike clerics or druids. Paladins aren't "half cleric, half fighter", and rangers are "priests in the woods" like druids.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Whether spheres or spell lists, the problem (automatic access to all spells throughout all new books) remains, unless the cleric and the druid get a "Spells Known" limitation.

Spheres may not eliminate the problem, but they would dramatically limit its impact. A supplement might add a few dozen new spells to the game, but may only add a couple to any given sphere, which is fairly manageable.

The real answer, though, is careful consideration of spells and products that will include them. A sphere should be complete before its release, and rarely, if ever expanded. Instead, new cleric spells should be part of new spheres, for use by custom deities.

I mean, lets be honest. Through the second and third edition Spell Compendiums, they have enough material on hand to plan ahead.

 

[Psikosis]

I think a larger problem is the set-in-concrete idea that divine magic is the principal source of healing. I've never bought into the convention that divine magic is the source of healing. Why? It makes sense if you worship a god of war, life, fertility or some similar domain, but what about the god of knowledge or trickery? One of the (relatively few) things I really like about 4e is that there are a fine assortment of non-divine sources of healing. It's a step in the right direction.

I also want echo what some of the earlier posts said about having cleric spell lists defined by their domain(s) and go a step further to say there's no need for a common list. That's not to say there can't be duplication among the domains, but again, I don't see a logical reason for a common list among divine casters.

In terms of game mechanics, it would add some much needed diversity and flexibility to the cleric class and spreading healing among multiple classes and/or skills/powers would balance the game a bit better.