Why are wizards always getting nerfed?

[Lord Pendragon]

I recently started a 12th-level campaign and chose to play a wizard. We've played one session so far, and while I'll admit I did feel slightly overshadowed by the warrior cleric and the ranger/archer, I don't believe the wizard is truly nerfed. There are going to be times (like my first session) where the cards are stacked against the wizard. (My wizzie's spell selection is fire-based--he even totes around a Staff of Fire, and we wound up in a lava cavern filled with [Fire] creatures! D'oh!) But there will also be times when the wizard is the go-to guy.

Overall, I think many have brought up some good points about the wizard needing to work as a part of the team. He can no longer expect to always do more damage than the fighter, or have more effective spells than the cleric. When he doesn't, he needs to improvise. When he does, he basks in the glory and rubs his companions' noses in it.

 

[Deset Gled]

Don't monks have +12 on all saves at level 20? Plus their cloaks of resistance, Wisdom, Dexterity, and Constitution modifiers, of course...

- Cyraneth

My mistake, maximum base save bonus is +12 for a "good" save. The maximum of a "bad" save, however, is +6. The average between these two is +9.

The monk is the only class that has three "good" saves. Barbarians, fighters, paladins, rogues, sorcerers and wizards have one good save. Bards, clerics, druids and rangers have two. This makes for a total of 17 good saves and 16 bad saves across the board. Taking these into consideration, the average for a maximum base save bonus is 10.55 (assuming that all classes are taken equally, and that the save chosen is random).

My point was that level based increases between saves are balanced (disputing the fact that you had claimed they weren't). The wisdom, dexterity, and constitution modifiers are not regular level based increases, so they were not the point of the comparison. Likewise, the cload of resistance is not a level based increase.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Cyraneth, it's your opinion, not peoples opinion.

If you can't play a wizard, don't.

I may not agree with Cyraneth, but your statment is just some crack dream, or just a pathetic attempt to discredit with a big lie. Cyraneth masy be the most vocal on this thread but its apparent others have agreed with him here. And this is hardly the 1st thread I've seen on this subject, so unless Cyraneth has been using alternate names even more agree with him.

My opinion is wizards still suck in the early levels. Suck as much as previous editions no, but they still suck. Mid levels there ok, but they no longer get overpowered at any levels. So better than before but still not as good as they should be.

Also d4 hp is just capitally dumb to keep.

 

[Bauglir]

Given advance knowledge of a situation, and the ability to setup and execute a plan, a wizard can be astonishingly powerful. (My favourite example of this is Maze, Time Stop [if you can], a slew of Delayed Blast Fireballs, Symbols & what have you, and finally a spherical wall of force around the lot - can make a sticky mess of most things as they come out of the maze). When attacked unexpectedly and/or by opponents the wizard knows nothing about they can be astonishingly weak.

It's another example of the Wizard's bipolar nature. Once again, due to the tendency of magic to stomp all over a good storyline given the chance, (and the tendency of DMs not to like this ) it has been my experience that the wizard will find themself in the second scenario much more often than the first. In this case they will just memorise a fairly generic set of daily spells (fireball, fly, dimension door, etc) and hope they come in useful. (And they don't always, as we can see in Lord Pendragon's example).

 

[mmu1]

I'm just tired of seeing wizards get reduced in power constantly. Why is it only BAB and saves increase over the levels? 'Cause fighter-types benefit from those. Why don't AC and save DCs increase over levels? 'Cause wizard-types would benefit from that.

This is the biggest load of nonsense posted in this thread so far, and the competition has been fierce...

Please explain how the change from the 2nd Edition save system under which the wizard had no impact on the difficulty of someone's saves to the 3.0 one where spell save DCs scale with spell level, DCs can be boosted with feats (a myriad of feats, if you use the splatbooks you seem to consider to be a part of the core rules) or an increase in Intelligence, and 90% of opponents have at least one weak save they have a very good chance of failing (rather than having a single "save vs. spell") is even remotely a reduction in power for the wizard.

Here's a concept for you: Save DCs don't automatically increase with level because the system was designed in such a way that they don't have to, and it works. There is no conspiravy to nerf wizards to spite you and all the other sniveling babies. You're nowhere near special enough.

 

[reapersaurus]

Do you have anything against wizards being in the spotlight every now and then?

Do you have any clue how much of an idiot you've shown yourself to be with statements like these?

Anyone who actually believes what you just said is in complete denial of the whole D&D rules system.

 

[reapersaurus]

I'm just tired of seeing wizards get reduced in power constantly. Why is it only BAB and saves increase over the levels? 'Cause fighter-types benefit from those. Why don't AC and save DCs increase over levels? 'Cause wizard-types would benefit from that. I know there are items that increase all these... except for save DCs. You can get items that increase both Dex and AC, items that increase both Str and attack, and items that increase Dex, Con, Wis, and saves, but save DCs are only modified by their casting stat. Looking at the basics, a fighter has a +31 bonus at level 20 (+20 BAB, +5 enhancement, +6 Str) while a wizard has only a +15 bonus (+6 Int, +9 spell level). A fighter can keep on slicing even the rare times he fails to connect, while a wizard will have to expend one of his four 9th-level spell slots. How can that possibly be fair? And mind that I'm only looking at the rates of success here. Effects (high damage, death, entanglement, etc.) won't mean a thing if they never succeed.

You're beginning to lose me with your irrationality here, Cyr.

How dare you point only to magic items and say "Look! there's no magic items that increase save DC's! D&D is discriminatory towards wizards!"
There are plenty of items that increase caster level, and plenty of spells that increase DC's (have you even LOOKED at Malhavoc Press's Book of Eldritch Might series? You'd love it - trust me). Not to mention PrC's that make spells DC's tougher (you must love Circle Magic from FR), and feats as well.
Save DC's DO increase as you go up - DC 10 + spell level. You do you realize how you prove yourself wrong with almost every post? Also - did you forget about Tomes of Clear Thought? That must not be a magic item, I guess.

Why are you assuming that a fighter always hits?
Do you have any clue how easy it is for a fighter to be rendered absolutely ineffective in a battle? He'd better have the right magic item on him, or he's hosed. What's that? He didn't happen to purchase or be given the right magic item? Well, too bad he doesn't have spells and scrolls that will make him effective again, like a wizard does.

And you DARE say "How can that be fair"? When speaking of 20th level wixzards??!
Dude - do you realize that a 20th level fighter WILL be rendered completely uselss vs a 20th level Wizard with no-save stuff like Forcecage, Maze, and even the "underpowered" Otto's Irresistable Dance?
That's not a "maybe" - that's an absolute certainty if the wizard wants it to be. Do you even know what the word "fair" means? How is it "fair" to have the wizard have countless things that the fighter can't do ANYTHING about, unless he happens to have purchased/found the right magic item? (BTW: he can't make his own)

Is 99% success not enough for you?
man, you've really gone over the edge with this delusion, Cyr.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Reapersaurus, the only person who's gone off the deep end here is you. "How DARE you" indeed.

 

[Darkness]

Guys, less flaming, please. Thank you.

I'm just tired of seeing wizards get reduced in power constantly. Why is it only BAB and saves increase over the levels? 'Cause fighter-types benefit from those. Why don't AC and save DCs increase over levels?

Ah, but save DCs do increase over the levels. It's called 'higher spell' levels, see.

If you consider -playable- wizards to be my "toys", then yes, I feel like it's been taken away. There's no longer any reason to play a fireball-hurling warlock as you'll most likely only dish out 17 points of damage per round (nothing compared to a fighter's 4 attacks, greatsword, Strength bonuses, etc.)

Cyr, duuude. Vague overgeneralizations ("he has 4 attacks and I can do only 17 pts.") aren't very useful. Please give some concrete examples.

 

[reapersaurus]

There is no conspiracy to nerf wizards to spite you.

I really don't think there's any way that a Conspiracy Theorist
can ever be convinced that they are not seeing reality.

I'm afraid we can't help Cyra- "Everthing in 3E and 3.5E was intended specifically to nerf wizards" -neth put down his tin hat and see the myriad of things that have proven his statement wrong time and time again in this thread.