Why aren't RPGs poplular

[ExploderWizard]

(The reason I mention the "Red Box" above was that that was the last time the Starter Set seemed to be 'done right'. Although, even there it fell foul of using the wrong rules, since it was for BECM D&D and the 'real' game was AD&D.)

Classic D&D was very much its own game and every bit as "real" as AD&D. It was a simpler game but that very simplicity is what made a starter set that retained its value possible.


Great observations otherwise.

 

[Guest 85555]

First off, this is an excellent topic. I think things are improving. I don't have any real numbers, but I just feel like I see more pen and paper RPGs at major book stores these days, than say ten years ago. But I hear what you are saying.

When I was a kid in the early 80s, it felt like D&D (and maybe fantasy and sci fi in general) was all over the place: in movies like ET, at toy stores, on television, etc. Maybe that was just a special moment in time, when it was just more cool. Maybe it was also before D&D had really been branded as a game for "nerds and geeks" (if I were to be honest, I would probably have to say I am a geek myself). In my mind that is probably what makes it a harder sell now. I don't think it is that people wouldn't enjoy playing if they gave it a fair shot, they just don't feel comfortable making the plunge into gaming, because they associate with being uncool. Maybe if we experience another cultural shift (a bit like we did in the 90s) when being a little on the nerdy side is hip, there will be more acceptance of gaming.

I saw the author of Fantasy Freaks and Gaming Geeks, Ethan Gilsdorf speak recently, and he had some interesting things to say about gaming culture and how even among different types of games (LARPING, Table Top, Online, Card Games, etc) there are mental divisions and hierarchies that make a person from one kind of gaming hesitant to cross over to another type. Probably a similar mechanism at work.

 

[mmadsen]

I've been to GenCon and know that 99+% of the people in this hobby are perfectly normal folks.

Some of us have drawn very different conclusions from the same sample data.

 

[mmadsen]

And thank whatever divinity you choose that the RPG industry doesn't use the consignment model. Books would cost twice as much since you'd be paying for the copy you're taking home and a copy that's going to be pulped.

It's not that simple, since publishing faces fairly high fixed costs (author, artists, etc.) and fairly low variable costs (each extra copy of a book is relatively cheap). And consignment makes stores willing to carry long-shots at all.

 

[Mallus]

Take 4e: The three core rulebooks run to 832 pages and have an RRP of $105. In order to play the game, each prospective player has to be familiar with large chunks of at least the "Player's Handbook", and the prospective DM has to have read large chunks of all three.

Wow is complex. So are the various Pokemon franchises (CCG's, console RPG's). Both are quite popular, the latter among young children, even (err, and some adults who shall remain nameless...).

Why doesn't complexity limit their popularity?

 

[Guest 85555]

Wow is complex. So are the various Pokemon franchises (CCG's, console RPG's). Both are quite popular, the latter among young children, even (err, and some adults who shall remain nameless...).

Why doesn't complexity limit their popularity?

I think the difference is that WOW is a computer game, and does all the calculations and grunt work for you. But to make a pen and paper game work, you need to understand the rules well, which does involve some heavy reading.

 

[Desdichado]

Classic D&D was very much its own game and every bit as "real" as AD&D. It was a simpler game but that very simplicity is what made a starter set that retained its value possible.

I almost said that too, but I think he's got a point. This is one of those "perception is reality" kind of things, and the perception was that the "basic" game was what you played around with for a little while, but the "advanced" game was the "real" game that you ended up playing when you were ready to take off the training wheels.

Looking back at it after the fact, if for some reason I were to go back and play with these older games again, I wouldn't touch AD&D and I'd play Basic and Expert instead. But at the time, we "knew" that that wasn't what you were supposed to do.

Some of us have drawn very different conclusions from the same sample data.

Indeed. I've rarely felt thinner, more attractive, sexier, and more socially adept then when I was at GenCon. And relatively speaking, I probably was.

GenCon has introduced us to the phenomenon of "The Running of the Fatbeards" too, where a whole bunch of stinky, sweaty middle-aged men kinda shuffle in a somewhat hurried fashion towards the booth that has the hot release of the year. I don't think 99+% of the population would do that, either.

 

[Mallus]

I think the difference is that WOW is a computer game, and does all the calculations and grunt work for you.

Even so, there are still a number of complex options/interactions/systems for WoW players to master, which might explain the amount of fan-created online material devoted to teaching people how to master them. Ditto w/the Pokemon...

But to make a pen and paper game work, you need to understand the rules well, which does involve some heavy reading.

I am a living testament to the fact you don't need to know the rules that well to run successful RPG campaigns. For years.

(what you really need is consent/buy-in from the your players, and I've found it's a mistake to believe that comes from rule mastery)

 

[ExploderWizard]

I think the difference is that WOW is a computer game, and does all the calculations and grunt work for you. But to make a pen and paper game work, you need to understand the rules well, which does involve some heavy reading.

Yes. I can log into WOW and play with very little thought or effort. Playing well and running endgame content takes a bit more effort but just playing the game questing/leveling barely requires a brain stem.

Add to that the convenience of on-demand play and the ability to play for only a few minutes at a time if you want and the attraction to the busy/attention defecit consumer is obvious.

 

[Guest 85555]

Even so, there are still a number of complex options/interactions/systems for WoW players to master, which might explain the amount of fan-created online material devoted to teaching people how to master them. Ditto w/the Pokemon...

This is a good point. And one of the reasons why I haven't really got into the online gaming thing. But when I have played, I can see how having the computer do calculations and record keeping for you (it basically runs all the behind the scenes elements of combat), would make getting into the game easier.

I am a living testament to the fact you don't need to know the rules that well to run successful RPG campaigns. For years.

(what you really need is consent/buy-in from the your players, and I've found it's a mistake to believe that comes from rule mastery)

I agree 100%. Rules mastery is not required to play a game. In fact, dwelling on the rules too much (and looking things up when you really could just make it up on the fly to keep things moving) can hurt the flow of an RPG. But I can see how opening the D&D rule book for the first time, can be intimidating for someone who has never played. I also think the sheer number of books can be confusing to someone encountering the hobby for the first time. Let's face it, if you don't like to read much (but might be the type of person who enjoys gaming) and you see a 220 page rule book for the first time, you might decide it isn't worth the effort.

Again though, your point about not needing to master the rules is totally true, but people may not be getting that impression when they are first introduced to gaming.