D&D 5E Why Balance is Bad

My question MBC is, if the pc's at a later time wanted to, could they revisit this gorge or is it a quantum gorge that disappears as soon as the PC's leave?

Its as you and several others have said. Once its formally established in the fiction, it is there for good. Same as establishing the name of an NPC, a town, or a piece of setting history. If it is revisited or recurrent, it doesn't suddenly change. If the group came back through those same badlands and wanted to invoke the gorge for whatever reason, it would be there for them to do so.
 

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Its as you and several others have said. Once its formally established in the fiction, it is there for good. Same as establishing the name of an NPC, a town, or a piece of setting history. If it is revisited or recurrent, it doesn't suddenly change. If the group came back through those same badlands and wanted to invoke the gorge for whatever reason, it would be there for them to do so.

I might make them roll to find the gorge again. After all, they were lost when they found it, which implies they don't know where it is. Depending on how they reached a state of not-lost, I might well consider that finding it again isn't just a matter of going back there.
 

Sure.

Then Mister I-dont-want-to-engage-in-combat decides to find something to do and that challenging encounter is now a cakewalk....
In the post I quoted from [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] the PC being posited had a combat capability of between 0 and 10%. Even if this PC decides to muck in, I wouldn't have though s/he would change a challenging encounter into a cakewalk.

I think D&D has particular features that make an ability to meaningfully contribute across all major areas of play desirable, but I don't think the difficulty of balancing encounters is one of them. Unless you're writing modules for purely generic parties, you just build your encounters around the known strengths of the PCs. That was my comment to shidaku - if the 5 PCs include one non-combatant, than just build your encounters as if there were 4 PC - problem solved. (I do this from time-to-time in 4e, because one of the PCs in my group is not quite a non-combatant, but if there is a magical puzzle to be solved in the encounter, like a gate to open or to shut, then he is the one who will be dealing with it.)

The reason I think D&D benefits from PCs being able to meaningfully contribute across all major areas of the game is because it has a very distinctive focus on party play. This in part mechanical - D&D has very weak mechanics for dealing with separated groups, and at least aspires to the idea of synergies across the party, so that the whole is mechanically greater than the sum of its parts - and in part cultural/traditional. And party play suffers when a PC is present in the scene but the player can't meaningfully impact the scene.
 

I guess my question is; why do classes have to be a zero sum game? Why does me being really good at X mean that I must completely suck at Y? Why can't I be really good at X and passable at Y?
 

I might make them roll to find the gorge again. After all, they were lost when they found it, which implies they don't know where it is. Depending on how they reached a state of not-lost, I might well consider that finding it again isn't just a matter of going back there.

Sure. That is probably sensible here. I just meant that it will be persistent after established such that PCs can expect to potentially interact with it again if those same badlands are crossed. Alternatively, they could seek it out directly (possibly contingent upon a successful navigation check as you mentioned).
 

Sure. That is probably sensible here. I just meant that it will be persistent after established such that PCs can expect to potentially interact with it again if those same badlands are crossed. Alternatively, they could seek it out directly (possibly contingent upon a successful navigation check as you mentioned).

I'm curious about a few things Manbearcat, in theory I get how this should work but I am more concerned with practical application...

1. We can suppose a vast number of skill challenges will be undertaken throughout the advancement of a single character, do you write down all of the fictional tidbits that may ever be interacted with at a later date? If not how do you keep track of numerous spur of the moment inventions of fiction that may or may not be relevant at a later time... or if so, doesn't this get tedious? How do you keep it from becoming a logistical nightmare?

2. With the abstract nature of skill challenges (variable time frame, distance covered, non-exact measurements etc.) how do you decide exactly where the gorge is, say if the PC's decided that once they found their bearings they wanted to map where the gorge was so they wouldn't stumble into it again?
 


And why can't another one be good at both? Or neither?

Well, good at nothing is probably not a niche that really needs to be enshrined by the mechanics. After all, that's fairly easy to do - just play a character with no attribute bonuses and lacking necessary skills.

But, really, how often is this going to come in play? "I want to play a completely hopeless character that's not good at anything" is something I don't think too many players are clamouring to play. I could be wrong, but, honestly, I don't think that's a niche that's really looking for a whole lot of air time.

Now, good at everything, is probably not a niche that needs to be in the rules either. It's a balance issue waiting to happen. If Character X is good at everything, why would a rational actor not choose that character? It's the caster issue writ large. That's the problem with casters in D&D already - by high levels, they are the best at everything.

On the other hand, if by "good at everything" you mean that they are second best at everything, but a specialist is better in a given area, then I can certainly get behind that. A character that is a competent/good fighter, good explorer and good talker, but takes a back seat in specific situations to the fighter in combat, the rogue in exploration and the bard in talking, that's fine, AFAIC.
 

I guess my question is; why do classes have to be a zero sum game? Why does me being really good at X mean that I must completely suck at Y? Why can't I be really good at X and passable at Y?

my guess is they are building the game right now so you are at least passable in Y. But someone with different taste could ask the opposite, why do i have to be good at everything?

i have my own preferences there, but ultimately the designers of D&D need to serve the majority of players, and that decision will be based on what they believe the majority wants, not on arguments overfans make to support their balance preferences.

I have done a bit of this in my own games. We don't have a class system,but have a skill based game where skills are divided into six groups. We decided to silo the point spread across groups originally, so you got 12 points in two major groups and 9 points in two minor groups. This skill groups basically cover different areas of play (combat, social interation, physical athleticism, professional skill, knowledge and defnses).

the feedback I got over time was the 12-9 difference was too narrow. Essentially, players were asking me "why can't I suck at a given category". So we changed it in two steps, first we introduced a rule to burg skill points in one category for points in another (get rid of all your combat points for three in physical). That helped but we still heard from people who felt they were too strong in their secondary skill groups. So we adjusted the secondaries to 6 points (and there was even talk of going to 33). That seemed to work much better for people. So now you have 12 points in stuff you are good at and 6 in things you are not so good at. But I coul easily drop that six to a three if feedback is such that folks seem to prefer it lower (and at three points then you have a number approaching 10% goodness).

I am sharing this to say I don't object out of hand to making characters good in areas outside their specialty. I think the question is how high or low that ought to be. And that is going to be based on what peple want. But i dont think there are any wrong preferences here. For every four people wh. Like our six to twelve point allocation, i will meet one or two people who want 12-0, 12-3 or a sinlge pool of points to spread over all their skills. Each of these match different preferences, but they also facilitate different styles of play.

Now my own personal preference is for something closer to 12-3. But i haven't found that popular enough among players to incorporate. I don't think 12-3 would be objectively bad design, because it supports a style of play and there are people who like it, myself included. But it wouldn't be the right design decision or this gameline. My attitude is somewhat similar in D&D. I might want something like 90-40-10 in the three pillars. But more fans might want 80-50-20 or something. Whatever the bulk of the players seem to want, in my opinion that is what they should do. And if tgey feel like it, they can include optional rules for scaling that down for poeple like me and scaling it up for people like you.
 

Well, good at nothing is probably not a niche that really needs to be enshrined by the mechanics. After all, that's fairly easy to do - just play a character with no attribute bonuses and lacking necessary skills.
Well, there's more than two things to be good at. Why not bad at X and Y but great at Z. Or decent at all three? Or any combination of aptitude levels at any of the above?

But, really, how often is this going to come in play? "I want to play a completely hopeless character that's not good at anything" is something I don't think too many players are clamouring to play. I could be wrong, but, honestly, I don't think that's a niche that's really looking for a whole lot of air time.
Well, there goes my LotR campaign.

Now, good at everything, is probably not a niche that needs to be in the rules either. It's a balance issue waiting to happen. If Character X is good at everything, why would a rational actor not choose that character? It's the caster issue writ large. That's the problem with casters in D&D already - by high levels, they are the best at everything.
It's also pretty common in genre fiction though, to have a hero be good at everything.

On the other hand, if by "good at everything" you mean that they are second best at everything, but a specialist is better in a given area, then I can certainly get behind that. A character that is a competent/good fighter, good explorer and good talker, but takes a back seat in specific situations to the fighter in combat, the rogue in exploration and the bard in talking, that's fine, AFAIC.
I've never been a fan of jack of all trade characters, but it does seem a mechanical niche worth filling.
 

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