D&D 5E Why Balance is Bad

[Bedrockgames]

And Traveller, which I have more familiarity with than Runequest, isn't exactly a stranger to genre credibility as a constraint on the rules, actions, and the results - you just have to realize its genre is semi-hard science fiction.

One of the things I have noticed in play, is most of the arguments over outcomes and believability of outcomes, at least that i have witnessed, stem from people not being on the same page in terms of "genre physics". A good example of this is when players lay a complex plan, particularly one where there are not hard and fast rules in the system for the players to determine outcomes. I have seen a number of instances where players laid complex plans, in great detail, even hiring thugs to help enact the , and the outcome is far from what they expected. Some of this just subjective judgment, different people will consider different schemes more plausible while others find them less so. But i found if you establish prior to play, what genre logic is being employed by the GM, most of this concern goes away. S is this action movie logic where cars blow up by getting shot, is it real life, or is this more like a police procedural. Now this isn't to say we are actively trying to play to a genre or emulate all the othr components, it is just about establishing where the GMs mind is in terms of deciding outcomes. Once i noticed this, it made an enormous difference. Probably wont work for everyone, but i have found it useful.

 

[Derren]

What games would those be?

Considering how such obstacles are referred to as "tricks" for "exploration encounters" 5E might become such a system.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4wand/20131030

 

[adamc]

4e just ain't the best at supporting that. Which brings me to balance: balance, to me, is not that everyone gets a chance to shine in every encounter, but rather that everyone gets a chance to shine maybe once every 15 minutes or so, over the course of an entire game session/adventure. If, in your game, that means they have to contribute to every encounter, you should probably re-examine the required encounter length for your game, if you want me to not whine about it on message boards.

I think that is a valid opinion, but it will only work well for the game when you have the right party that _wants_ to shine that way, rather than during encounters. It's hard to prove things with anecdotal evidence, but I don't think it would work well for my group, or for any group with a strong combat focus.

You can certainly have a lot of story in a 4e game, but its strengths are tactical, combat-oriented strengths, including its type of "balance".

 

[pemerton]

It's worth keeping in mind that different people view the same rules in different ways. You may see that a failed Nature check caused a gorge to appear, but I would say that the gorge was always there and your failed check caused you the ill luck of running into it. Inspiring healing when you're unconscious... is actually kind of an incredibly standard trope in heroic fiction.

When we make the causal judgement, there are two "locations" where causation is occurring: in the real world; and in the fiction of the game.

In the real world, it is the failed Nature check that causes the GM to narrate the presence of the gorge.

In the fiction, it is the player's poor choices and bad luck that cause him/her to encounter the gorge in his/her path.

Thus, there is a lack of connection between ingame causal processes and action resolution - because the action resolution is not modelling the PC's choices and luck, which are what cause the PC to encounter the gorge, but rather is simply generating the outcome. (For instance: the action resolution does not require the making of any navigational choices, or contain any components or elements that model navigation.)

Inspiration healing is probably harder to analyse, because it takes us into the notoriously murky realm of hit points. But given that (say) Inspiring Word works the same whether the damage taken is ongoing acid damage from being swallowed by a purple worm, psychic damage that follows recovery from having been mind-controlled to attack one's friends, or falling unconscious from a hammer blow, I'm am confident in say that it is not modelling the various causal processes that take place in the fiction. It is simply geneating an outcome.

In case it's not clear: I don't object to this sort of outcome-based resolution. 4e is rife with it!

Was it there on the map the PCs bought sessions ago? Is it on the handout the players have from the area?

In the sort of play resolved in the way I described above - in which the action resolution mechanics do not model the causal processes that are occurring within the fiction - a map wouldn't be a detailed handout on which the players track their PCs' movements. It would be an item on an equipment list that grants +2 (say) to Nature checks used to navigate.

More generally, action resolution that proceeds without trying to model ingame causal processes tends to rely on a degree of abstraction. The same sort of issue you raise about maps would also be raised by trying to mix a hit location system with a D&D-style hit point system.

Did the PCs see the gorge in their previous travels? Will it still be there in a few sessions?

It would seem to me, that once the gorge is established in play, it would always be there.

Nothing has to be set in stone until you have presented it to the players.

What Hussar and Incenjucar say here seems right to me.

But that's not the issue. The gorge appearing is fine. It's that for some reason the gorge disappears after its existence has been established in play.

I doubt hero quest does that.

Heroquesting happens in a mythical realm, where things can change depending on how the hero-quester engages the myths and heroic figures that underpin that realm.

This is a bit of a corner case, and I think [MENTION=49017]Bluenose[/MENTION] is right that it probably wasn't what Derren had in mind.

The problem with this is that when a class is say, 90% good at social and 10% good at combat, or even 0% good at combat, it means that other classes have to make up for it.

Couldn't the GM just build weaker combat encounters?

 

[Hussar]

Considering how such obstacles are referred to as "tricks" for "exploration encounters" 5E might become such a system.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4wand/20131030

Umm, read the article, not seeing what you're seeing (although the box SnapApp is not available, so maybe there is something there that I'm missing). Nothing in what he says would create some bizarre world where you have a quantum gorge appearing and then not appearing.

It would appear to me, that once something is established at the table, it will always be true. The fountain will always be there, once you find it.

The difference being, the fountain may or may not be there, depending on what you roll for your exploration check, in some play styles. Instead of having a fixed chain of encounters, you can be a lot more fuzzy and add stuff in, based on checks, rather than on freestyle exploration play.

But, once it IS there, it will always be there.

 

[Incenjucar]

Good design is design which accomplishes its goals in an effective manner for the largest possible portion of its intended audience.

Trick is figuring out the goals.

 

[Hussar]

Good design is design which accomplishes its goals in an effective manner for the largest possible portion of its intended audience.

Trick is figuring out the goals.

I'd agree with that.

 

[Marshall]

Couldn't the GM just build weaker combat encounters?

Sure.

Then Mister I-dont-want-to-engage-in-combat decides to find something to do and that challenging encounter is now a cakewalk....

 

[Manbearcat]

For reference, here is the anecdote of the shrodinger's gorge and how it manifests in play. This is the tail end of a Complexity 3 Skill Challenge (8 successes before 3 failures). Having pilfered an idol from a temple to Zehir, the PCs are being chased through desolate badlands by an overwhelming force of snakemen. A village is cursed and the idol is key to the ritual to undo the curse.

Of note. Setting is zoomed-out. The initial excursion through the badlands was transitioned by way of deployed "Ranger" resources, which earned the below PC a + 2 to his Nature check on the way back out. Specific geological features are not mapped. This is scene-based play meant to drive play toward conflict, resolve those conflicts, and continue escalating the stakes until they resolve themselves naturally through play. It is not serial exploration where every geographical feature is marked in considerable detail and where most campfire scenes or mundane haggling with merchants and hucksters are played out, all in order to immerse in a living, breathing world. It is a different sort of game where the primary locus of play is the conflict-charged scene.

The stakes are clear so the question that the conflict is answering is: "Will the PCs escape with the idol?"

What is important is that in this sort of zoomed-out conflict resolution, the adeptness of the PC's execution of the task itself is not of primary consequence. You can go ahead and assume proficiency. What is important is the intent of the task with respect to the stakes and the current fictional positioning. If upon deployment of the resource the mechanical resolution yields a failure, then a complication born of failure to succeed at the intent of the effort manifests, denying forward momentum toward the PC's strategic objective (affirmation of the question established at the outset). Directly below, the PC's resident Rogue laid a trap for their pursuit the evening before. It yielded a success, bringing the mechanical resolution of the conflict to 7:1, so nearing the realization of the positive outcome of the stakes; "the PCs escape with the idol."

GM: Despite the success of your companion's trap in buying you much needed time to recover, the chase now carries on for many hours. Your horses fatigue while your pursuit's lizard mounts do not yield. Hours pile up and while you are nearing the last leg of your trek through the badlands, your pursuit gains. They are now within artillery range and as dawn breaks, their aim becomes more true. Javelins whir by your heads, the crackle of lightning sizzles next to your ears, startling your exhausting horses. The ground gives way in great chunks, switches back, rises and falls; death from a neck-breaking fall is everywhere.

So the next PC (their trailblazer, a Bladesinger with Ranger secondary) has the conflict zoomed in on him. Present fictional positioning:

- Idol secured.
- Many hours into the chase.
- Overwhelming pursuit gaining.
- Under fire.
- Horses tiring.
- No more stars to navigate.
- Treacherous badlands.

We are at the climax of the challenge with what appears to be a positive denouement right around the corner.

PC: I work in earnest to keep my horse steady despite it all. I curse the Goddess of Night for taking away the stars as I am now blind in guiding my companions. I hope my horse knows the way better than I. I hold tight, steering him free of any hazards and any incoming enemy fire. I look for natural signs of the trail that brought us into this harsh place...and hope.

His intent is to ride his tired horse proficiently through the maze of death while seeking signs of the natural markers that brought them into the badlands to take them back out. Again, the question the conflict is answering is "do the PCs escape?"

The PC fails his Nature check (despite his + 2 bonus). Complication arises with respect to the intent of his effort married to the stakes.

GM: Your horse moves sluggishly and its natural sense of the way appears askew due to its state. You see none of the scant trail-signs that you marked in your mind on the way in. Everything looks the same. Over the next rise your worst fears are realized in the shape of a deep gorge. Your horses in their best state could leap across the chasm...but they are tired. Doubling back may be the only way out. But your pursuit closes in on you.

Nigh-impassable gorge as complication of failed Nature check to ride his tired horse proficiently through the maze of death while seeking signs of the natural markers that brought them into the badlands to take them back out. This in effort to answer the question the conflict is resolving, "do the PCs escape?", in the affirmative.

At that point we were at 7:2, with the next success or failure dictating the outcome of the Skill Challenge and the resolution of the stakes determined at the outset; "Will the PCs escape with the idol?"

 

[Hussar]

My question MBC is, if the pc's at a later time wanted to, could they revisit this gorge or is it a quantum gorge that disappears as soon as the PC's leave?