D&D 3E/3.5 Why be a 3.5 fighter?

[pawsplay]

It would seem to me that you're not powerful if it takes your team of 4 level 12 characters 24-30 rounds to kill a CR 10 monster.

Six rounds, if they wish to avoid taking any damage whatosever. The 24-30 rounds was for the fighter to solo the "challenging" CR 10 encounter while doing the same. According to the DMG, taking no damage at all and expending some easily replaced arrows it highly overperforming in such a situation.

 

[Dandu]

My mistake for misreading. It's been corrected in the original post. Perhaps you'd care to edit your post as well?

I really would like to hear you address the point about Commoners being able to do the exact same thing as the fighter if you're going to try archery vs Dragons and Hydras.

 

[pawsplay]

Conjourers (the most common flavor of specialist wizard due to the broad versatility of the school) have Immediate Magic (Abrupt Jaunt) which fixes the snatch problem very nicely.

As I said, different characters have their strengths.

In core only, Dimension Door is a 4th level spell that ONLY has a V component, which means you can cast it in a grapple with a relatively simple Concentration check. Dim Door out of range (what, 800ish feet), note that Spot checks impose a -1 penalty per 10 feet, and run like a SoB under the cover of your -80 cover.

There is a reason most wizards keep one or two D-doors in their back pocket. Otherwise, flying snatchers can be deadly.

I swear I'm not just a mindless wizard apologist, but there is a reason wizards are ranked as Tier 1. ... Fighters have their uses.

We are not in disagreement.

Wizards are extremely powerful. In general, wizard > fighter, in most circumstances. However, I would definitely prefer a wizard and a fighter working together over two wizards. With a wizard backing him up, the fighter doesn't have to worry as much about adverse battlefield conditions or nasty spellcasting combos from monster casters; he is then able to demonstrate his capabilities fully.

I believe the 3.5 fighter is underbuilt compared to most other classes. However, I also believe just as certainly that he is still the best *fighter*. To be truly irrelevant, a class has to be beatable at its own game. It's very difficult for a rogue or a paladin to say, "whatever comes our way, I'll find a way to damage it," but a fighter typically can. A cleric or wizard can hack most scenarios, but they can expend far fewer resources doing so if they can bring a fighter or barbarian to bear against hard-hitting opponents. Rogues don't really fight Large or Huge opponents so much as escape them, or finish them off once they have already been rendered ineffective due to grease/blindness/etc. A wizard and cleric team can bring down dragons, but missteps can be dangerous.

It's much the same as the AD&D thief. It was a weaker class, but it was really better if you had one in your party. Fewer knock spells means more magic missiles, and that makes everyone happy.

Wizards can summon monsters, but if they can buff the fighter, the result is better than either a summoned monster or an unbuffed fighter. See how that works?

 

[pawsplay]

My mistake for misreading. It's been corrected in the original post. Perhaps you'd care to edit your post as well?

I really would like to hear you address the point about Commoners being able to do the exact same thing as the fighter if you're going to try archery vs Dragons and Hydras.

They can't. Against dragons, they can't hit, and can't survive the dragon breath. Against hydras, they can't hit often enough and don't do enough damage to overcome fast healing 21. Commoners can shoot, like, bears or something. Not dragons, not hydras. Even most barbarians are going to play very weak in archery.

 

[Dandu]

As I said, different characters have their strengths.

What, then is the figher's strength? You mentioned powerful, versatile combatant, but it's decidedly less powerful than a spellcaster, and as for versatility, you've never moved beyond archery.

However, I would definitely prefer a wizard and a fighter working together over two wizards.

You do realize that all-caster parties have been tried before by people on Charop, GitP, and BG, and they have kicked much more ass than traditional magic user/healer/thief/fighting man parties, right?

Example all caster party: Druid, Cleric, Wizard, Beguiler.

 

[Dandu]

They can't. Against dragons, they can't hit, and can't survive the dragon breath.

Commoners simply have to hide under cover, have lots of ranks in UMD, wands of CLW and True Strike, and potions of energy resistance.

Against hydras, they can't hit often enough and don't do enough damage to overcome fast healing 21.

Wounding arrows.

Obviously, I'm being a little facetious, but with enough resources devoted to the task, you can make a level 12 commoner kill hydras as part of a group or by himself. Doesn't mean the class is any good.

 

[pawsplay]

You do realize that all-caster parties have been tried before by people on Charop and BG, and they have kicked much more ass than traditional magic user/healer/thief/fighting man parties, right?

I'm not sure what your point is. Lots of things have been tried on CharOp. The number of "things" we could be discussing is in the thousands, many of them implausible either by the rules or by the build-in assumptions of most campaigns, and some of them frankly pervy. Really, if you want to kill a hydra, you should get the War Hulking Hurler to throw a small mountain at it or something, but I don't see what relevance that has to our discussion.

Summon bearded devil. Watch your enemies bleed to death.

Well, all of your enemies not under the influence of protection from evil, obviously. And assuming 2 hit points/round will do the job. And archery isn't a more relevant answer to the question at hand. Bearded devil vs. 11-headed hydra, not so great.

 

[Dandu]

I'm not sure what your point is.

That two casters > caster+fighter, at least when very good players are doing it.

Well, all of your enemies not under the influence of protection from evil, obviously.

You must mean Magic Circle Against Evil, since a Bearded Devil is prevented from touching the warded creature, but can still hit it with its glaive.

And assuming 2 hit points/round will do the job.

It will if the enemy can't make heal checks. (Heal is that skill you have to have ranks in to make anything with a DC above 10.

And archery isn't a more relevant answer to the question at hand. Bearded devil vs. 11-headed hydra, not so great.

Barded devil hits the hydra once, the hydra's going to slowly bleed to death since you can't heal from the damage the cursed wound inflicts every round unless you make a heal check.

 

[pawsplay]

Commoners simply have to hide under cover, have lots of ranks in UMD, wands of CLW and True Strike, and potions of energy resistance.

Wounding arrows.

Obviously, I'm being a little facetious, but with enough resources devoted to the task, you can make a level 12 commoner kill hydras as part of a group or by himself. Doesn't mean the class is any good.

It also doesn't mean the fighter is bad. I didn't really give my fighters any hydra-specific items or expensive magical items. By the time they are done killing the hydra, in 6 rounds, without taking damage, they will be about about 1 gp in arrows, due their extravagant use of cold iron.

 

[Dandu]

It also doesn't mean the fighter is bad. I didn't really give my fighters any hydra-specific items or expensive magical items. By the time they are done killing the hydra, in 6 rounds, without taking damage, they will be about about 1 gp in arrows, due their extravagant use of cold iron.

DnD isn't a shooting gallery where your fighters can comfortably lounge about a hundred feet away from monsters and plink at them all day. There's actual terrain to consider.

For example, you do realize that in a marsh, you can take cover in a deep bog for cover and get+8 to AC, and then go prone for another +4 to AC vs ranged attacks, right?

How does that affect the ability of your fighters to kite the hydra?

Furthermore, what about the fact that you move in marshes less well than a hydra, which has a swim speed? What about if the encounter occurs in close quarters, say a dungeon?

Incidentally, speaking of water, you never did say what stopped a Black Dragon from grabbing someone and drowning them.