Why can't I overrun in a charge!!???
- Thread starter Matafuego
- Start date
drunkmoogle
First Post
I think they did it for the sake of the back row persons. This errata makes tactical formation very important in a successful party. Since most back rowers go down in one to two swings, they must have felt it was to powerful to allow a character to attack and threaten them in the same round while also moving twice your speed.
Assume an ogre with a smart leader. Leader tells Shrek to smush the wizard. Shrek can probably knock down anyone in his path (being large and ogrey), and smush the wizard with one great (power attacked) swing. Not fun.
Assume an ogre with a smart leader. Leader tells Shrek to smush the wizard. Shrek can probably knock down anyone in his path (being large and ogrey), and smush the wizard with one great (power attacked) swing. Not fun.
But he's supposed to do that, he's large, the group is medium!
Before you could, being Medium, overrun even a large subject. I never saw that as possible, but large creatures overruning medium or small ones are a feasability, while attacking someone behind.
If the Wizard is well protected the "front rowers" (I don't know if that's the name) could prepare waiting for the charge and inflict double damage with a lance or the such, and they would still have to be beaten in the Overrun attempt...
Before you could, being Medium, overrun even a large subject. I never saw that as possible, but large creatures overruning medium or small ones are a feasability, while attacking someone behind.
If the Wizard is well protected the "front rowers" (I don't know if that's the name) could prepare waiting for the charge and inflict double damage with a lance or the such, and they would still have to be beaten in the Overrun attempt...
shilsen
Adventurer
I agree with drunkmoogle. It's got nothing to do with realism (but then very little in D&D does, so there's no reason it has to), but is simply in the rules so that the evil wizard can have a line of mooks between him and the PCs and not have them totally nullified by one charging overrun.
DevoutlyApathetic
First Post
Here I thought it was to stop the 'charging through a friendly by overrunning' nonsense that cropped up soon after the new charge rules came out.
Nyarlathotep
Explorer
A slight hijack...
Speaking of overrun (and sorry to hijack the thread a bit), what happens in the following situation?
------------------------------------
OO<----20'--->F<5'> M
OO
-----------------------------------
O=Ogre facing
F=Fighter facing
M=Mage facing
Situation: An infamous 10-foot wide hallway scenario. There is a 20-foot space between the Ogre and the fighter and a 5-foot space between the fighter and the mage. The ogre wants to overrun the fighter to be adjacent to the mage*. He moves up to the fighter and uses a standard action to overrun. An attack of opportunity is drawn when the ogre moves into the fighter's square (a miss). The fighter chooses to block the ogre and loses the opposed test (ogre STR, fighter STR), which knocks the fighter prone. The ogre advances over the prone fighter to be adjacent to the mage.
Now here's where it gets tricky
. The ogre can't end his movement adjacent to the mage as the prone fighter would occupy one of the squares of the ogres face. Since the ogre isn't 3 sizes larger than the fighter and the fighter isn't helpless, they cannot share the same space. So the closest the ogre can get to the mage is the square in front of the fighter.
Is this correct? (Good thing I'm a DM or I'd be accused of rules-lawyering)
* He's one of them smart ogres and wants to get an AoO if the mage attempts to cast.
Speaking of overrun (and sorry to hijack the thread a bit), what happens in the following situation?
------------------------------------
OO<----20'--->F<5'> M
OO
-----------------------------------
O=Ogre facing
F=Fighter facing
M=Mage facing
Situation: An infamous 10-foot wide hallway scenario. There is a 20-foot space between the Ogre and the fighter and a 5-foot space between the fighter and the mage. The ogre wants to overrun the fighter to be adjacent to the mage*. He moves up to the fighter and uses a standard action to overrun. An attack of opportunity is drawn when the ogre moves into the fighter's square (a miss). The fighter chooses to block the ogre and loses the opposed test (ogre STR, fighter STR), which knocks the fighter prone. The ogre advances over the prone fighter to be adjacent to the mage.
Now here's where it gets tricky
. The ogre can't end his movement adjacent to the mage as the prone fighter would occupy one of the squares of the ogres face. Since the ogre isn't 3 sizes larger than the fighter and the fighter isn't helpless, they cannot share the same space. So the closest the ogre can get to the mage is the square in front of the fighter.Is this correct? (Good thing I'm a DM or I'd be accused of rules-lawyering
)* He's one of them smart ogres and wants to get an AoO if the mage attempts to cast.
Tatsukun
Danjin Masutaa
Well, the Orge moves 40' (30 with armor), so why can't he just squeeze down to a 5' X 10' size and go below (to the Oger's right) of the fighter and end up below the mage (while still squeezing) or behind the mage.
Or, I guess he could end up between the mage and the fighter while squeezing. Of course, in the next round that mage is going to either step back or be killed, so the ogre won't have to squeeze for long.
-Tatsu
Or, I guess he could end up between the mage and the fighter while squeezing. Of course, in the next round that mage is going to either step back or be killed, so the ogre won't have to squeeze for long.
-Tatsu
Greylock
First Post
Matafuego said:
The same thing came up in the game I'm in. Early on my char wanted to charge and over-run a gathering of goblins. Just swoosh right through and get to the BBEG. Even the DM agreed that my STR18 guy realistically could just tromp them and/or kick them out of his way. But we both agreed the game mechanics wouldn't allow it.
*sigh*
It really woulda changed the outcome of that fight. Oh well, water under the bridge now...
Amal Shukup
First Post
By the rules, one simply cannot Overrun as part of a Charge.
I agree with previous poster's assessments that this was done to 'protect' back row types from unfriendly attentions. However, I am not sympathetic. Lots of solid tactictal options are available to defending mooks: ALL Overruns provoke AOOs, weapons can be set to recieve Charge, and Readied Actions can allow additional defenders to intercept a charge (moving to where an AOO is provoked and/or the overrun can be opposed).
What I've done in my campaign ('Bahwoooga!' - House Rule Alert - 'Bahwoooga!') is change Overrun from a 'special Standard Action' to a 'Not-an-Action'. It is simply an event that may or may not occur during Movement. If, during movement, a combatant attempts to move through a square occupied by an opponent, we resolve it as an Overrun.
This allows combatants to blow through opponents as part of a Charge or as part of normal movement. Of course, if the opponent succesfully blocks, the rest of the Charge or Move action is lost.
It hasn't come up too often, but the players seem reasonably happy with it.
One thing I'm not 100% clear on is if a Readied action (which only allows a Standard Action) counts as 'If you are able to take only a standard action ... you can still charge". Because if so, defenders could even Ready Actions to Charge a Charging attacker (only moving 1x movement).
A'Mal
I agree with previous poster's assessments that this was done to 'protect' back row types from unfriendly attentions. However, I am not sympathetic. Lots of solid tactictal options are available to defending mooks: ALL Overruns provoke AOOs, weapons can be set to recieve Charge, and Readied Actions can allow additional defenders to intercept a charge (moving to where an AOO is provoked and/or the overrun can be opposed).
What I've done in my campaign ('Bahwoooga!' - House Rule Alert - 'Bahwoooga!') is change Overrun from a 'special Standard Action' to a 'Not-an-Action'. It is simply an event that may or may not occur during Movement. If, during movement, a combatant attempts to move through a square occupied by an opponent, we resolve it as an Overrun.
This allows combatants to blow through opponents as part of a Charge or as part of normal movement. Of course, if the opponent succesfully blocks, the rest of the Charge or Move action is lost.
It hasn't come up too often, but the players seem reasonably happy with it.
One thing I'm not 100% clear on is if a Readied action (which only allows a Standard Action) counts as 'If you are able to take only a standard action ... you can still charge". Because if so, defenders could even Ready Actions to Charge a Charging attacker (only moving 1x movement).
A'Mal
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Amal Shukup said:
It's 'If you are restricted to a standard or move action only on your turn'.
On your turn, you can take a Move action and the Ready action. Therefore, you are not restricted on your turn, and the restricted charge is not an action available to you. Since you can't do it, you can't Ready it.
Unless you're a zombie, or slowed, or it's the surprise round, for example.
-Hyp.
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