Why Changes were made in 4e

[Raven Crowking]

Still using a kinda-sorta 3.X mechanic.

As comes to no surprise, I am incorrect. Seems to be a 3.5-based game.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Here's what would make me interested in 4e, at least in terms of a MMORG-type thing:

(1) Get the Virtual Tabletop working.

(2) Make the VT work in conjunction with the MMORG, so that characters could 'port from the VT to the MMORG and back, bringing their changes with them.

(3) Make this interactive to enough of a degree that someone playing in a MMORG could jump into a VT game with the DM's permission in media res.

As I said earlier, I know nothing about coding, so the above might be impossible. But I would certainly give 4e an extended try to play around with this sort of setup.


RC

 

[Benimoto]

Clicked on it. "The best combat of any MMO". Again, if 4e combat is so bloody hard to code, and so bloody hard to work in an MMO, colour me confused. Sorry, but Celebrim wins this one, AFAICT!

D&D Online uses a version of the 3rd edition mechanics, adapted for an MMO type combat system.

In my opinion, as someone who's worked on adapting a different turn-based game (Battletech) to the computer, 4e is not particularly well-adapted to computer-based play.

It's nice that the rules are well-edited, with less general ambiguity than previous editions. Perhaps it's that level of precision that make people think "computer", but in so many cases the rules precisely describe something that's easy to do with people sitting around a table and difficult to do on a computer.

As so many people have described here, in a a decent computer game, you really need specific phases of a turn where one person is allowed uninterrupted input, and that just doesn't happen in 4e. There are optional actions, reactions, optional reactions, and etc. Around a tabletop it's easy to call out "oh hey, I'm going to use my immediate teleport", but the interface to allow that kind of thing is just maddening in a computer game.

Of course you can adapt things, but as you can see with DDO, that's exactly what they've already done with 3e. What puts 4e in a bad position is exactly that so many iconic powers are iconic exactly because of their mechanical definition. In previous editions, a fireball was a fireball, and swinging a sword was swinging a sword. You could do that in a computer game, and plenty of games did. But in 4e, if Wolf Pack Tactics or Passing Attack doesn't work the way it does at the game table then what even is it?

As another issue, if you're talking about MMOs here, they use an entirely different system for gear. In an MMO, acquiring items is another, separate system of character progression. No edition of D&D has echoed that feel, but 3e came close. You can see how it was adapted if you check out DDO. 4e goes in the directly opposite direction, making gear into somewhat of an afterthought, with the exception of your weapons/armor/neck slot bonuses.

And finally, if you look at 4e's emphasis on teamwork, while that would make a good turn-based tactical game, most of the games that actually sell these days are first-person with at least a partial emphasis on solo play.

Really I have to agree with the conclusion that 4e seems designed specifically for tabletop play, with little concessions towards what might make a good computer game. I'm sure it will be adapted, as all the editions have been, but it will be an adaptation, using little of the actual details of 4e.

 

[Lackhand]

Good old double post, what would I do without you?

 

[Lackhand]

Inlines.

Here's what would make me interested in 4e, at least in terms of a MMORG-type thing:

(1) Get the Virtual Tabletop working.

Hear hear!

(2) Make the VT work in conjunction with the MMORG, so that characters could 'port from the VT to the MMORG and back, bringing their changes with them.

I think that this doesn't make any sense to me, but maybe I'm not understanding you. A virtual table top is only very slightly cooler than a physical table top.
The only thing that (as I see it) it could take from an MMORPG would be your character's visual appearance. It doesn't know about races, classes, abilities; it doesn't even necessarily know about movement rates, initiatives, and so on. It doesn't enforce rules, display battle options, or so on; it's just a bunch of 3d models hanging out in a bunch of 3d space with lighting and maybe a movement grid.

Maybe you're just asking for a very small feature (Let me do cool stuff with my avatar!), but I don't understand what "changes" you'd bring with you to the table top.

I guess being able to generate a D&D-compatible character sheet from an MMORPG would be pretty cool, though there are some things that just don't translate well between games, as was ninja'd above.

(3) Make this interactive to enough of a degree that someone playing in a MMORG could jump into a VT game with the DM's permission in media res.

Yup, I'm lost

 

[Raven Crowking]

D&D Online uses a version of the 3rd edition mechanics, adapted for an MMO type combat system.

To be honest, I hadn't really been aware of D&D Online. When I saw the banner, I thought it was new.

In my opinion, as someone who's worked on adapting a different turn-based game (Battletech) to the computer, 4e is not particularly well-adapted to computer-based play.

I appreciate your analysis. This isn't an area that I am particularly well versed it (perhaps better described as an area that I am particularly ill-versed in! )

I think that this doesn't make any sense to me, but maybe I'm not understanding you. A virtual table top is only very slightly cooler than a physical table top.

What I mean is a game where you could play with a real DM, or with the computer MMORG, and keep the same character, with both adding to the character. In other words, the real DM's work would add to the MMORG world, and all players would potentially gain the benefit of all the work of all DMs involved. I imagined that the "real DM" games would have to take place on the VT, because the VT would port the information into the MMORG (and vice versa).

I may not be explaining what I mean well, and what I am suggesting might require Star Trek technology to work.

There would also have to be systems in place to prevent the real DMs from corrupting/unbalancing the overall MMORG world.

If anyone can understand what I am trying to describe, and can describe it better, please do so!


RC

 

[mudbunny]

I*think* that I understand what you are describing. I will try to rephrase it another way.

I start off playing an MMO (Let's say, for sake of argument only, one that is based on the SW:SAGA rules). I get to a point, and I geta pop up (or other notification) that Raven Crowking is running this over a virtual tabletop. "Do I want to join?" If I say yes, my character is pulled out of the MMO and placed on the virtual tabletop to play with RC as the DM, as opposed to a computer somewhere.

Is that accurate??

 

[Raven Crowking]

I*think* that I understand what you are describing. I will try to rephrase it another way.

I start off playing an MMO (Let's say, for sake of argument only, one that is based on the SW:SAGA rules). I get to a point, and I geta pop up (or other notification) that Raven Crowking is running this over a virtual tabletop. "Do I want to join?" If I say yes, my character is pulled out of the MMO and placed on the virtual tabletop to play with RC as the DM, as opposed to a computer somewhere.

Is that accurate??

Yes.

And when you are done in the VT, your character, updated based on the events in the VT returns to the MMO. Moreover, the VT area becomes "part of" the MMO, and can be modified or run by other DMs using the VT for other players.

(Imagine, if you would, a megadungeon that is, essentially, also part of the MMO world, and evolved through the work of other DMs even when you are not running it yourself.)


RC

 

[Betote]

(Imagine, if you would, a megadungeon that is, essentially, also part of the MMO world, and evolved through the work of other DMs even when you are not running it yourself.)

My awesometer just exploded.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Yes.

And when you are done in the VT, your character, updated based on the events in the VT returns to the MMO. Moreover, the VT area becomes "part of" the MMO, and can be modified or run by other DMs using the VT for other players.

(Imagine, if you would, a megadungeon that is, essentially, also part of the MMO world, and evolved through the work of other DMs even when you are not running it yourself.)


RC

Pretty awesome but the technical difficulties are huge and there are big issues with the economy and balance with in the MMO.

I think with current technology the best you could hope for would be a living type campaing where the MMO quests and the VTT quests would all form part of the living campaign. So you could level from say 1 to 4 in the MMO and then take the character into a VTT adventure where you gain a level and some toys. The DM signs off on the XP gained and other relevant info (Contacts made and so forth) and that information gets updated into the MMO so when you get back to the MMO the character is now leveled up and has whatever was gained in the VTT adventure.

From a purely technical point of view, designing a mod mapper that produces 3d terrain and fixtures that looks good is generally a non trivial piece of software that is not easy to use and too much of a learning curve for most DMs as well as being far to complex for the requirements of a VTT.
In my opinion the VTT should be capable of being used in a very basic fashion.
It can have a lot of graphical bells and whistles for the artictically inclined or those with the time on their hands to make use of it. But many DMs (myself included) are happy enough with a battle mat and dry erase markers too much fancy graphics in the VTT is too much work.