Why Changes were made in 4e

[avin]

4E as TOEE = great, 4E as Wow = epic fail.

 

[billd91]

I honestly don't think I'm expressing how badly WHAT the powers actually do (and not just the clear format) means for trying to translate to real time.

Oh, you're clearly expressing it, but you're not very convincing as a number of other posters here have pointed out.

 

[SSquirrel]

Of course WotC wants to support the RPGA. That brings more people to conventions and, in theory, it also brings more people out to the local gaming stores to play in RPGA games. 3Es marketing was all built on ever-branching out system.

We produce the core rules and everyone will buy those, but then they might also buy your monster book, adventure or main system book. Even people who leave our game for another (Arcana Evolved instead of 3.5 for example) might still buy a book or 2 to enhance their game, which is more than we would have gotten if they had left to play Champions or RIFTS.

We emphasize the Living <gamerealm> and encourage participation at conventions and local game stores. This brings more money to conventions and to game stores, both of which assist in selling more of our product.

 

[AllisterH]

Oh, you're clearly expressing it, but you're not very convincing as a number of other posters here have pointed out.

Heh

It would be so much easier if I could simply say "Think Disgaea could be a real time RPG?" and have people get it.

(Even the breakdown of the round into minor, move and standard should be an indication of how tricky morphing it into real time would be)

 

[Benimoto]

Oh, you're clearly expressing it, but you're not very convincing as a number of other posters here have pointed out.

Again, as I mentioned in my earlier post, it's true that a number of the powers in 4e seem fairly simple to translate. Attacks that do something like "2[W] + daze (save ends)" or "Area burst 2, 4d6 fire" are a breeze to translate to the computer. This was the case with previous editions too. A sword swing did 1d8+3 or a fireball did 5d6 damage.

But, at almost every level of play there are powers that would require a more complicated interface than any tactical RPG or even MMO I've played and I've played a lot. The warlord is full of them. At level 1, Wolf Pack Tactics requires you to pick a target, then pick an adjacent ally and move that ally before you make the attack. That's a lot of clicking (or whatever) for one attack, and many of his powers have similarly elaborate targeting and resolution requirements. And then there's all the interrupting. Quite a few of his powers have a trigger like "you or an ally take damage". Is the game going to interrupt you every time someone takes damage to ask if you want to use a power?

Other game mechanics, like the Evoker's multi-target attacks would be nearly impossible in a real time game, and sort of elaborate for the state of turn-based games, as I've seen them.

It's not that I'm saying the powers can't be implemented in a computer game. Looking at them at least 90% of them would not be that complex to implement. It's just that, as I envision it, the interface necessary to support many of those powers would be so baroque, complex and potentially frustrating that the game would just not be fun to play. Maybe I'm wrong, and such a game would be a hit, but it would look nothing like the popular games on the shelves today.

4e is clearly designed to be played with all the players sitting around a game table, calling out targets, negotiating, interrupting each other, taking things back, and getting all their hands all over the miniatures. It's quite satisfying that way but almost all of those things are things computer interfaces are notoriously bad at.

 

[MichaelSomething]

After all this talk of why changes were made, allow me to re-introduce my tinfoil hat conspiracy theory. I freely admit I have nothing more than circumstantial evidence and this has some very serious holes in it. But, in my mind, I think that there is a very strong, single element that informs almost all the changes made with 4e.

The RPGA.

Funny, I thought it was the message boards.

Character Optimization boards to show the world just how crazy powerful to make your PCs.

Dozens and Dozen of 20 page threads talking about how Wizards > Fighters or who is what ailgnment.


Someone at WOTC must have read all of that and thought to themselves, "If I make an edition that solves those complaints, people will be happy!" Boy, were they wrong.

 

[Betote]

It would be so much easier if I could simply say "Think Disgaea could be a real time RPG?" and have people get it.

On an unrelated note, is Disgaea any good? I'm almost finishing Chrono Trigger and it's time to look for another NDS RPG goodness...

 

[Imban]

On an unrelated note, is Disgaea any good? I'm almost finishing Chrono Trigger and it's time to look for another NDS RPG goodness...

Disgaea's quite fun and has a hilarious plotline, but it's the exact opposite of a rigorous tactical RPG. It is (quite intentionally) broken, and part of the fun is how you can get your level up into the thousands and create characters who utterly crush the game.

 

[Derren]

The 4E rules are horrible for CRPGs, both real time and turn based if you want to stay true to the rules.

Its pretty obvious that real time does not work with interrupts and pushing targets to specific squares (the latter once can be done with a pause mode whenever you need to make such a decision, though).

In turn based fights on the other hands you would be spammed to death by interrupt questions (Enemy moves a square -> "Do you want to interrupt" popup -> Enemy moves another square -> Popup, and so on)

The actual effect of powers are very easy to code (X damage + effect), but the interrupts are what makes coding hard.
Rituals would most likely be removed as were many utility spells in previous D&D games.

In the end, you would get a real time RPG which will be about as close to PnP 4E as Dawn of War (think Starcraft) is to the Warhammer 40K Tabletop.
Turn based games don't sell often unless the development was not very costly (see Blood Bowl which also shows which Tabletop rules can be converted into a PC game faithfully). And Atari is not in the position of being able to make fan games which please the fans but might not break even (Only EA and maybe Activision might do that) and D&D is/was one of its few franchises which generated profit so they won't hurt that brand by making a cheap game.
The only real possibility of a turn based D&D game likely is for handhelds and only if the D&D PSP game sold well.

 

[Xris Robin]

You want to see what it takes to automate 4e in Maptool? Look here

You hardly have to automate it to play it. Macros just make gameplay faster in exchange for more setup. Done once. But you can play it fine without most of that.