Raven Crowking
First Post
Like I said, I'm not a coding guy by any means, but I do think that (eventually) coding will allow MMOs and real-GM games to hook up in awesome ways.
Why Changes were made in 4e
- Thread starter Majoru Oakheart
- Start date
Possibly in the medium term and I could see it as an eventual revenue stream for WoTC, in that modules could be sold via the DDI with 3d terrain maps for use in 3d VTTs and eventually these could be imported in to an MMO.
It would be the height of foolishness for WoTC to develop a VTT and not release adventures to use with it.
Hussar
Legend
RC - that would be very, very cool. It basically marries the best of both worlds. You can play D&D by yourself on the MMO, then play with a group.
I suppose an issue would be if you wanted to play with the same group week after week. If your achievements ported back and forth between systems, how would you do it? You would have a 1st level character suddenly (possibly) jump three levels between sessions and have all sorts of loot as well.
I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but, it would be very difficult for DM's to run anything more than one shots.
---------------------
After all this talk of why changes were made, allow me to re-introduce my tinfoil hat conspiracy theory. I freely admit I have nothing more than circumstantial evidence and this has some very serious holes in it. But, in my mind, I think that there is a very strong, single element that informs almost all the changes made with 4e.
The RPGA.
Let me present my evidence, such as it is. What is the biggest impediment to organized play? To me, it's vague rules that allow players to do stuff the designers can't prepare for. So, 4e yanked almost all those elements. Organized play runs much, much smoother.
Think about it for a second. Take cohorts/pets as an example. It's extremely difficult to prep an adventure with the assumption of cohorts/pets. They can dramatically increase the abilities of the party. ((Imagine for a second that 4 players sit down to a RPGA game and all have cohorts - that's a much stronger party than 4 players without)) So, cohorts/pets are gone. This has a secondary effect I'll get into later.
We saw this as well in late 3e Living Greyhawk with the various rewrites of polymorph. Polymorph in a home game probably wasn't that big of a deal. In organized play, it was huge. So, yank, gone.
Another thing is the whole "everything is core" idea. In RPGA, everything is core. You can generally use any book outside of setting specific ones. So, if you are going to focus on the RPGA, why not make that the standard?
Going back to the cohort/pet thing. In organized play, it's quite possible that players have paid to play. I'd be pretty annoyed if I sat down with my rogue and my turn in combat takes thirty seconds and the guy next to me takes five minutes because he has a pet, summoned creatures AND a cohort. And that's if he's on the ball. If he's not on the ball, the game grinds to a halt.
Same with the more complicated rules like grapple. Sure, in a home game, you work out how grapple works as a group. But in RPGA, you don't play with the same people all the time and it's quite possible that the DM or a player doesn't have a firm grip on the rules and you spend way too much time futzing about. So, again, yank, gone. This also has the effect of not limiting adventure design. You have to design for a 4 hour session. That means you can't use a bunch of grapple monsters (for example) because you will grind the session to a halt. Removing grapple removes that issue for designers.
RPGA is now giving very tangible rewards. We've seen a few posts on people getting nice little goodies from the RPGA for playing. That's gotta be a huge expense. But it sure brings in people to the group. Everyone likes getting free stuff. And getting free stuff for playing D&D? WIN!
Another post here talked about how at a recent large con, there were no 4e games. It wasn't that there were no 4e games, but all the games were under the auspices of the RPGA. That's a huge shift. And, in my mind, a sign of things to come.
To me, this also explains the abandonment of the OGL. After all, OGL material isn't used in RPGA play. It doesn't do anything for the RPGA and actually allows people to play D&D in a non-RPGA environment. Keeping everything under the WOTC umbrella means that even non-RPGA tabletops are still playing RPGA style games (at least rules wise) which makes transition very easy from a regular tabletop to an RPGA tabletop.
To me, the reason that 4e looks the way it does is to facilitate RPGA play. It's easier to design for and the rules have a lot less fudge factor, making it much easier to adjudicate for strangers. It's not to create a MMO. That doesn't really sell books. But, a strong RPGA means you can sell books forever. Last RPGA number I saw, which was a few years ago in Dragon, put RPGA membership at about 150 000. Imagine for a second they can ramp that up to 500 000. That's 500 k players, many of whom will buy the latest book because they will very likely USE it in their RPGA games. And they can use it because it's core.
Anyway, that's my conspiracy theory. Take from it what you will.
I suppose an issue would be if you wanted to play with the same group week after week. If your achievements ported back and forth between systems, how would you do it? You would have a 1st level character suddenly (possibly) jump three levels between sessions and have all sorts of loot as well.
I'm not saying it couldn't be done, but, it would be very difficult for DM's to run anything more than one shots.
---------------------
After all this talk of why changes were made, allow me to re-introduce my tinfoil hat conspiracy theory. I freely admit I have nothing more than circumstantial evidence and this has some very serious holes in it. But, in my mind, I think that there is a very strong, single element that informs almost all the changes made with 4e.
The RPGA.
Let me present my evidence, such as it is. What is the biggest impediment to organized play? To me, it's vague rules that allow players to do stuff the designers can't prepare for. So, 4e yanked almost all those elements. Organized play runs much, much smoother.
Think about it for a second. Take cohorts/pets as an example. It's extremely difficult to prep an adventure with the assumption of cohorts/pets. They can dramatically increase the abilities of the party. ((Imagine for a second that 4 players sit down to a RPGA game and all have cohorts - that's a much stronger party than 4 players without)) So, cohorts/pets are gone. This has a secondary effect I'll get into later.
We saw this as well in late 3e Living Greyhawk with the various rewrites of polymorph. Polymorph in a home game probably wasn't that big of a deal. In organized play, it was huge. So, yank, gone.
Another thing is the whole "everything is core" idea. In RPGA, everything is core. You can generally use any book outside of setting specific ones. So, if you are going to focus on the RPGA, why not make that the standard?
Going back to the cohort/pet thing. In organized play, it's quite possible that players have paid to play. I'd be pretty annoyed if I sat down with my rogue and my turn in combat takes thirty seconds and the guy next to me takes five minutes because he has a pet, summoned creatures AND a cohort. And that's if he's on the ball. If he's not on the ball, the game grinds to a halt.
Same with the more complicated rules like grapple. Sure, in a home game, you work out how grapple works as a group. But in RPGA, you don't play with the same people all the time and it's quite possible that the DM or a player doesn't have a firm grip on the rules and you spend way too much time futzing about. So, again, yank, gone. This also has the effect of not limiting adventure design. You have to design for a 4 hour session. That means you can't use a bunch of grapple monsters (for example) because you will grind the session to a halt. Removing grapple removes that issue for designers.
RPGA is now giving very tangible rewards. We've seen a few posts on people getting nice little goodies from the RPGA for playing. That's gotta be a huge expense. But it sure brings in people to the group. Everyone likes getting free stuff. And getting free stuff for playing D&D? WIN!
Another post here talked about how at a recent large con, there were no 4e games. It wasn't that there were no 4e games, but all the games were under the auspices of the RPGA. That's a huge shift. And, in my mind, a sign of things to come.
To me, this also explains the abandonment of the OGL. After all, OGL material isn't used in RPGA play. It doesn't do anything for the RPGA and actually allows people to play D&D in a non-RPGA environment. Keeping everything under the WOTC umbrella means that even non-RPGA tabletops are still playing RPGA style games (at least rules wise) which makes transition very easy from a regular tabletop to an RPGA tabletop.
To me, the reason that 4e looks the way it does is to facilitate RPGA play. It's easier to design for and the rules have a lot less fudge factor, making it much easier to adjudicate for strangers. It's not to create a MMO. That doesn't really sell books. But, a strong RPGA means you can sell books forever. Last RPGA number I saw, which was a few years ago in Dragon, put RPGA membership at about 150 000. Imagine for a second they can ramp that up to 500 000. That's 500 k players, many of whom will buy the latest book because they will very likely USE it in their RPGA games. And they can use it because it's core.
Anyway, that's my conspiracy theory. Take from it what you will.
4Ed is made of people!
"Humans are smarter than apes!"
Errrr......
It was actually the site itself. I wanted my part of the post to be in all CAPS, but instead, ENWorld eliminated all of the caps. I put back what I could remember of yours when I went back to edit mine.
Errrr......
It was actually the site itself. I wanted my part of the post to be in all CAPS, but instead, ENWorld eliminated all of the caps. I put back what I could remember of yours when I went back to edit mine.
Remathilis
Legend
Hussar, I think you hit the jackpot...
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that nearly EVERY change 4e had was made with an RPGA mindset.
A variety of classes filling 4 unique mechanical niches? Not so useful in a game that can be tailor-fit to PCs, but immensely useful for RPGA/module scenarios.
Skill checks codified to create "non combat" encounters that have fixed result options, set DC/success ratios, and allow all PCS to be involved? Yup.
The Delve Format? Yeah.
Moreso than anything else, 4e seems to reward predictability. If not from the players, at least from the game mechanics. 3e was trending this way; 4e broke the barrier. Your wizard might have a few cantrips for creating mischief, but none of the plot-altering spells like charms, summons, polymorphs, or illusions. Rituals are too long and costly (not to mention specific) to use them to break plots. Even the monster design allows a lot more "villain runs away" elements (high hp, AP, solo-save bonus). Lastly, you know the rogue can sneak/steal, the cleric can heal, the wizard shoot lightning, and the fighter has a big weapon and armor (No more oddball parties of diplomat rogues, enchanter-wizards, archer-fighters, and battle-buff cleric-tanks).
All those things are key if you want the game to have certain universal assumptions. Assumptions you need to create scripted scenarios. For modules, the RPGA, VTT-style games, and MMOs.
Hussar
Legend
Well, I've already disagreed on the MMO thing. But, I'll leave that to people who actually know anything about coding to argue. Again, considering that every edition has been turned into a CRPG, which means it was possible, I'll certainly agree that its possible to do it with 4e. I'm only disagreeing with the idea that it's somehow easier. I don't know, and I highly, highly suspect that many of those claiming that it's easier don't have any idea either.
As far as VTT style games, I actually have to disagree. 4e and 3e are both a PITA for VTT because of the focus on battlemaps. You have to have a battlemap and minis prepped for every single session you play on a VTT. I would say about half my prep time in 3e is spent prepping minis and the battlemap and, after seven years of doing it, I'm pretty quick. Plus, all those damn rules makes coding macros a PITA as well.
I just prepped 4 scenarios for a rules light game called Sufficiently Advanced. Took me an hour. 1 macro for all actions. Done. No battlemaps because the game doesn't use grid combat. Half an hour to troll Google Image Search for background images, another half an hour to get some cool images and I'm totally prepped for 4 scenarios. It took me a lot longer to get the actual scenarios written.
For a VTT, if you want easy, use 1e or 2e. Again, you don't need battlemaps and you have so few options that creating macros would take you little or no time.
You want to see what it takes to automate 4e in Maptool? Look here
As far as VTT style games, I actually have to disagree. 4e and 3e are both a PITA for VTT because of the focus on battlemaps. You have to have a battlemap and minis prepped for every single session you play on a VTT. I would say about half my prep time in 3e is spent prepping minis and the battlemap and, after seven years of doing it, I'm pretty quick. Plus, all those damn rules makes coding macros a PITA as well.
I just prepped 4 scenarios for a rules light game called Sufficiently Advanced. Took me an hour. 1 macro for all actions. Done. No battlemaps because the game doesn't use grid combat. Half an hour to troll Google Image Search for background images, another half an hour to get some cool images and I'm totally prepped for 4 scenarios. It took me a lot longer to get the actual scenarios written.
For a VTT, if you want easy, use 1e or 2e. Again, you don't need battlemaps and you have so few options that creating macros would take you little or no time.
You want to see what it takes to automate 4e in Maptool? Look here
A better question is what proportion of 4E WotC books have been purchased by RPGA players. I would guess that if there is a significantly large proportion of 4E books sales that went to RPGA players (in comparison to non-RPGA players), it would make sense to cater to the RPGA.
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