Why D&D Is Better Than World of Warcraft

[Najo]

Just out of curiousity what things can D&D not do that WoW can? Cookie cutter quests? Dull combat? Ohhhh I got it, complete and utter lack of roleplaying.

Thing is, that doesn't matter when the WOW player has to read 100's of pages of rules to get playing or needs a group of 2-5 people to play with locally with their schedules tha same as his. Until those barriers are removed, WOW will win out to D&D.

 

[Raloc]

@Najo, that's probably the only thing I agree with that WoW does better. If DDI is done properly maybe that will alleviate the issue. I absolutely disagree that WoW or any computer based game will ever be able to do "D&D" better than D&D does it, and there's nothing that D&D can't do that WoW can (especially since WoW is a very bastardized great grandchild of D&D anyway (given that D&D->text adventures->MUDs->Everquest->WoW)).

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Rules-light games encourage creativity because they put the player in the mindset of "What would my character be able to do?" rather than "What do the rules say my character can do?"

Kind of a thread derail, but...

I will grant you that Rules Light games can encourage creativity in the manner you describe. If you have no reason to think you cannot do something, you are much more likely to try it. This can result in you ripping off cool things from movies or books, or just pulling them out of your arse.

However, a Rules Light game also ultimately limits your options to those that the DM will expressly allow. That in turn leads to situations where a DM will declare actions that he deems harmful to his plot / adventure / narrative to automatically fail. Or it can lead to situations where the players think the DM is railroading them when he says that his villain is indeed capable of sneaking into their camp and stealing certain plot critical items. Such arguments can and do happen between perfectly reasonable people.

The presence of Rules do not inhibit creativity in and of themselves. They can be an obstacle if a rule is too complicated to quickly apply (Grapple, resolving AoO's, and the 'Variable Sprawl' that leads to having more than 4 different modifiers to a given roll catch most of the blame for this in 3rd edition). They can be a problem if the rule does not work out as well in practice as it ought to (Tumble not having an opposed roll, Diplomacy being maxed and applicable to all NPC's). But I am not convinced that having a bad rule is worse than having no rule.

Having a rule for a given item can give the players and the DM an idea of what is possible. Having rules for picking locks means that the players will know they can try that when they come to a locked door. Having rules for an armour check penalty for heavy armour while swimming tell the DM that just because someone is wearing plate armour, it does not mean they automatically drown.

The reason I am not a fan of Rules Light games is because I would rather argue with a DM over a rule than argue with a DM who wont let me try something at all.

Anyway, thats enough of a de-rail for now.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

Just out of curiousity what things can D&D not do that WoW can? Cookie cutter quests? Dull combat? Ohhhh I got it, complete and utter lack of roleplaying.

Exactly. When I sit in front of the TV with my laptop in my lap and grind on some raptors, that is what I want. It's about mindless convenience.

Also, I like flashy special effects and shallow plots in my movies, too.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

@Najo, that's probably the only thing I agree with that WoW does better. If DDI is done properly maybe that will alleviate the issue. I absolutely disagree that WoW or any computer based game will ever be able to do "D&D" better than D&D does it, and there's nothing that D&D can't do that WoW can (especially since WoW is a very bastardized great grandchild of D&D anyway (given that D&D->text adventures->MUDs->Everquest->WoW)).

I agree that WoW can't do D&D as well as D&D (not even close) and that D&D can do WoW. The thing is, WoW does WoW easier. For D&D to do WoW, I still have to put a modicum of work into it.

Well, D&D can't allow me to chat with random people from around the world who are sharing an experience with me, while we are playing the same game. Even DDI will be limited to 'out of game' experiences such as this (unless it's going to allow random people to log into your game while you are playing and start chatting it up).

 

[Incenjucar]

(unless it's going to allow random people to log into your game while you are playing and start chatting it up).

This is what IMs are for.

--

Beyond that, there really needs to be a concerted effort to train new DMs.

I mean, actual money needs to be spent or sacrificed on it...

There also needs to be some serious work on growing the IMAGE of the game.

Personally, any gaming I do in person when I get things going again, I will be done dressed to the nines (maybe with comfortable shoes). The hobby needs to get away from the Comic Book Guy stereotype look, and, yes, even the casual look, for at least SOME portion of its public appearances.

D&D needs a touch of, though it burns my tongue to say it, Hollywood.

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

This is what IMs are for.

I am not one to randomly IM someone. I will, however, occasionally get into a conversation with someone who happens to be on the same quest that I am on or farming the same area or whatnot. It's completely unplanned conversation, occuring because of the task at hand.

Personally, I like that D&D doesn't do that, because when I play D&D, I don't want that.

 

[Raloc]

Exactly. When I sit in front of the TV with my laptop in my lap and grind on some raptors, that is what I want. It's about mindless convenience.

Also, I like flashy special effects and shallow plots in my movies, too.

I can see the appeal in this to some degree. This very thing was brought up in regards DDO* from my fiance, who is a WoW player (she disliked having to, you know, do things).

* - I admit DDO is flawed in a lot of ways, but I find it fundamentally more fun than WoW, since it's not all about the grind, has some pretty cool traps and puzzles...etc.

I agree that WoW can't do D&D as well as D&D (not even close) and that D&D can do WoW. The thing is, WoW does WoW easier. For D&D to do WoW, I still have to put a modicum of work into it.

True.... Doing WoW in D&D would definitely be missing the point of D&D. I completely agree.

Well, D&D can't allow me to chat with random people from around the world who are sharing an experience with me, while we are playing the same game. Even DDI will be limited to 'out of game' experiences such as this (unless it's going to allow random people to log into your game while you are playing and start chatting it up).

I suppose there's some appeal in this, but for me at least, the gameplay itself makes this part uninteresting to me. If the gameplay (i.e., combat) were ala Mount&Blade or Oblivion, it'd be a different story altogether.

Personally though, when I want that sort of zoned out play, I pick up Alien Hominid or something of that sort.

 

[Najo]

@Najo, that's probably the only thing I agree with that WoW does better. If DDI is done properly maybe that will alleviate the issue. I absolutely disagree that WoW or any computer based game will ever be able to do "D&D" better than D&D does it, and there's nothing that D&D can't do that WoW can (especially since WoW is a very bastardized great grandchild of D&D anyway (given that D&D->text adventures->MUDs->Everquest->WoW)).

I never said that WOW does D&D better than D&D. Only thing I said was that if D&D doesn't remove its barriers to entry and get noticed by casual players plopping down and playing it, then WOW will over shadow D&D. Right now, the sales figures and head counts show that WOW is winning. What WOW proves though, is you make a fantasy adventure experience easily accessible, people love it. Sort of like what happened with Lord of the Rings, easily accessible.

D&D is headed this direction. WOTC has a big task in front of them and I hope they pull it off. When people say they think 4.0 was not needed and 3.5 is fine, this thread and the issues we are discussing within it are exactly the same reasons WOTC decided to push on 4.0 and make such radical changes. It HAD to happen. 3.5 was a good system for the typical D&D player, it was a terrible system for casual players and new players to learn. It was a terrible system to licensce out into MMOs and other multi-media products. In today's day and age, those barriers would have made D&D slowly (or not so slowly depending on what competing products show up) die on its own counter intuitive and rules glut systems.

 

[Raloc]

@Najo, yeah that bit about WoW doing certain things better wasn't aimed at you (my bad). I definitely agree that D&D needs to learn from WoW in terms of accessibility, but don't think it has really anything else to offer.

I sincerely hope that DDI is done right and isn't created as a cheap money grab (see v-minis being arbitrarily restricted and priced ridiculously, for no other reason than that the physical minis are distributed that way). If they don't screw it up, and make it ridiculously restrictive (say, requiring every player to own the same minis, forcing you to buy minis in booster packs, forcing you to buy duplicates...) it should be a really good step forward.

More than anything though, I think they need to initiate a large campaign to get people playing and DMing (and really have some sort of DM apprenticeship, since many people I've seen would like very much to play, but don't have a DM).