Why D&D is slowly cutting its own throat.
- Thread starter Celebrim
- Start date
Crothian said:
Sold out of the print run or the copies they took to the show? Without numbers it's hard to determine anything.
This concealing of information is, in my opinion, the game industry's biggest weakness. Novels, computer games, CDs, DVDs -- numbers of units sold for these we can find. Even movies report ticket sales on a regular basis. I feel game companies hide their sales data out of fear that others will know just how poor their sales are.
Crothian said:
It would help customers to understand why things are the way they are. If people knew that publishers were only selling 500 copies of a new product on release they'd better understand that it isn't greed driving higher prices and product decisions.
The Shaman
First Post
Of the non-WotC products, Mutants and Masterminds is one that I've played and like and I'm giving Castles and Crusades a close look - the latter will probably be the system-of-choice for my next fantasy setting.buzz said:
Given its close relationship to 3e, it may seem odd that I think d20 Modern is the most enjoyable roleplaying game I've ever played. There are a few differences between 3e and Modern that I think make the latter cleaner to play. The adventure prep time is much less as the 'setting' is already written (i.e., our world) and there are fewer stats to be concerned with in most of the games I run - arranging lots of interaction with normal people is much easier than filling up a fantasy landscape with monstrous critters. The nature of combat in the game tends to discourage the kinds of twinkiness that comes with melee-heavy fantasy games, and FX (magic or psionics) is extremely rare and limited in my Modern games. The level of character detail that can be achieved in this genre is less cumbersome as a result, so it doesn't have the same drawbacks in actual play as D&D.
Crothian said:
I don't think it would improve sales any* but I do think it would help cut down on the number of "greedy publisher" statements. If people knew how close a lot of publishers are to going out of business I think that there would be more of a fan movement to squash any "X is ripping me off by charging Y" complaints.
* Though it might. Witness the GOO incident earlier this year. If people had known earlier what was happening the company may have enjoyed better sales and not been forced to run a giant sale. Or, for that matter, FFG. How many more people would have bought FFG Legends & Lairs products if they had known sales were so low the company had no choice but to end the line?
TheAuldGrump
First Post
philreed said:
[Academician Prokhor Zakharov] The internet is not an information superhighway! It is a communications highway, and one with a large noise to signal ratio.[/Academician Prokhor Zakharov]
Sorry, been playing Alpha Centauri again...
For me flavor is better defined by the setting material than the adventures, but adventures help define the setting. But it is interesting that the argument seems to have shifted, even from the original poster. In a formal debate that would be called 'losing'.
In my estimation there are better adventures now than during the 'classic' period. I do not purchase many, but I didn't then either. I do not think that D&D is 'cutting its own throat', and unlike TSR in its later days WotC shows signs of listening to their customers. And yes, customers like crunch. I can find you reviews of The Iron Kingdoms World Guide where people complain that there is no crunch, only fluff. (Wonderful fluff in my estimation!) There are adventures that interest me that TSR would never have produced.
In some ways we are comparing old time radio shows to television, when the listener (or DM) has to provide his own mental image he becomes attached to it and has warm feelings. Television (3.x) provides more of the actual image, so the DM may not feel as attached to the final product. (Mix those metaphors! Go for it Grump!
) New stuff just does not have the resevoir of nostalgia that the older stuff has built up. Anyway, I seem to be losing coherence, so it is likely time for me to take a nap...
The Auld Grump
Odds & Ends
First: Somewhere in THIS big-ass thread there is a brief discussion of the sales figures for RPG products, including commentary from figures in the know (not by me, however). As I recall the thread's content, a typical good product sells between 5-10K copies. In other words...not a lot.
Second: It seems to me that the current economics of the hobby do not support adventure modules in the same form or amount as we have come to expect them based on our experiences with 1st and 2nd edition D&D- Too much competition from old product conversions, Dungeon and homebrew, too small a market (DM's only). Mini-adventures like AEG's or multiple, near-campaign sized adventures bound into 1 book will become more typical of products offered for sale.
Third: As stated by many others, for an adventure to be considered a classic requires time and experience. Enough players and DMs must experience the product and rate it favorably...and it must withstand the test of years of parties going through it- all in the harsh spotlight of being compared to the adventures of the past. The adventures we experienced in 1st and 2nd edition are classics because people still want to play them. The adventures of today? I'm enjoying adventuring in RttToEE right now. It reminds me of older modules, and I can see myself running it to another group of gamers in the future...perhaps even in a D20 Modern setting. On the other hand, most of the 3Ed campaigns I've been involved with were pure homebrew.
I (or others) may have said it before, but it bears repeating: Part of the greatness of those other modules is that they came first. They were written to fill a void. There is no void anymore. Any adventure written today cannot be merely good to become a classic, it must be great. It isn't going to be compared to the average adventure that you may own but only ran once (or not at all)...it will be compared to the best of the best, the ones that captured our interest and etched themselves in our minds.
So, of course the current crop of adventures will seem anemic to you. Your expectations are much higher than when you first discovered role-playing.
Think about the rock band The Yardbirds. In succession, that band had Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page playing lead guitar. Imagine if they were still around today with "some guy named Joe" playing lead. Unless he were Joe Perry or Joe Satriani, he'd have nothing but left-handed complements and ulcers at best.
First: Somewhere in THIS big-ass thread there is a brief discussion of the sales figures for RPG products, including commentary from figures in the know (not by me, however). As I recall the thread's content, a typical good product sells between 5-10K copies. In other words...not a lot.
Second: It seems to me that the current economics of the hobby do not support adventure modules in the same form or amount as we have come to expect them based on our experiences with 1st and 2nd edition D&D- Too much competition from old product conversions, Dungeon and homebrew, too small a market (DM's only). Mini-adventures like AEG's or multiple, near-campaign sized adventures bound into 1 book will become more typical of products offered for sale.
Third: As stated by many others, for an adventure to be considered a classic requires time and experience. Enough players and DMs must experience the product and rate it favorably...and it must withstand the test of years of parties going through it- all in the harsh spotlight of being compared to the adventures of the past. The adventures we experienced in 1st and 2nd edition are classics because people still want to play them. The adventures of today? I'm enjoying adventuring in RttToEE right now. It reminds me of older modules, and I can see myself running it to another group of gamers in the future...perhaps even in a D20 Modern setting. On the other hand, most of the 3Ed campaigns I've been involved with were pure homebrew.
I (or others) may have said it before, but it bears repeating: Part of the greatness of those other modules is that they came first. They were written to fill a void. There is no void anymore. Any adventure written today cannot be merely good to become a classic, it must be great. It isn't going to be compared to the average adventure that you may own but only ran once (or not at all)...it will be compared to the best of the best, the ones that captured our interest and etched themselves in our minds.
So, of course the current crop of adventures will seem anemic to you. Your expectations are much higher than when you first discovered role-playing.
Think about the rock band The Yardbirds. In succession, that band had Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck and Jimmy Page playing lead guitar. Imagine if they were still around today with "some guy named Joe" playing lead. Unless he were Joe Perry or Joe Satriani, he'd have nothing but left-handed complements and ulcers at best.
National Acrobat
First Post
Interesting
This is an interesting post, and as a very established old gamer I find it to be something that I would like to see as well.
I love the published adventures.
Some of the old stuff was great just to read even if you didn't use it.
I play in a group of 9 people. I generally DM pretty much all of the time, have for the last 15 years of our group.
Since 3E and Castles and Crusades both came out, I have been the only DM for the group.
Others have wanted to DM, but the answers are always the same.
The other guys all want a fleshed out, detailed campaign setting that they have to do no work for, they want premade modules, preferably a total campaign that they have to do nothing to, so that they don't need to put any time into prepping beyond reading the material.
Anyone else have this problem?
This is an interesting post, and as a very established old gamer I find it to be something that I would like to see as well.
I love the published adventures.
Some of the old stuff was great just to read even if you didn't use it.
I play in a group of 9 people. I generally DM pretty much all of the time, have for the last 15 years of our group.
Since 3E and Castles and Crusades both came out, I have been the only DM for the group.
Others have wanted to DM, but the answers are always the same.
The other guys all want a fleshed out, detailed campaign setting that they have to do no work for, they want premade modules, preferably a total campaign that they have to do nothing to, so that they don't need to put any time into prepping beyond reading the material.
Anyone else have this problem?
