D&D 5E Why did they design Demiplane to suck?

[Dausuul]

According to DND lore, magic once went beyond level 9 magic up to 12th level. The scale of the powers were intense, but there was only one level 12 spell ever created or cast.

I have never heard of any such lore, and it conflicts with a lot of stuff I have seen, like the 3E Epic Handbook, which has rules for spells going up to 25th level.

Do you have a primary source for this? A book published by Wizards or TSR, with a page number?

 

[Bohandas]

the 3E Epic Handbook, which has rules for spells going up to 25th level.

Not true spells though, just spells from the regular 9 levels modified with metamagic feats

 

[Dausuul]

Not true spells though, just spells from the regular 9 levels modified with metamagic feats

Fair point. The true "epic spells" in the ELH don't use the level system at all.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I've heard the story about the 12th level magic before. It's Forgotten Realms history, which makes it a part of D&D multiverse lore.

But...

It seems to me that one can accept those events happened in the multiverse without accept the particular terminologies used. For instance, if you were playing 3e, you could just say that those 10th and 11th level spells were just Epic Spells that they had decided to classify according to the familiar spell levels, and the 12th level spell was a unique thing (as it was presented).

In 5e, there are multiple ways of dealing with it that don't rely on accepting that magic objectively went above 9th level. You could say that 10+ level spells are actually just variant ways of casting wish that produce specific (rather than open) results at the cost of the extra hoops you have to jump through. (In an extremely high magic society, they used language that codified these various results and such as different spells of higher levels, even though mechanically it was "cast wish plus do this stuff".) Or you could say they are all unique things rather than something that follows the standard spellcasting rules.

Although I find the contradictory lore in D&D irritating, there is usually enough of it that with most things you can multiple ways of interpreting the reality behind the lore.

One of my stand-by approaches to lore changes that I don't care for (like the way 5e presents the origins of the Yugoloths or MToF presents a lot of elven stuff) is, "some people on some worlds believe that".

 

[Bohandas]

Fair point. The true "epic spells" in the ELH don't use the level system at all.

Well they don't use normal spell slots at any rate. Technically they count as level 10 for other effects dependent on spell level.

 

[A Aulenback]

I've been thinking ahead to when my Warlock will get the spell, and this is totally what I'm picturing. Since the spell lets you either establish a new one or connect to an existing one the first thing you do is create a handful of them during downtime and furnish each as needed.

So one demiplane is the Armory

Another demiplane is the Guest Room

A third would be the Workshop

Oh, and regarding ways to leave if you let the spell expire without exiting. The elegant way is Plane Shift back to your plane of choice, which should land you in relatively close proximity to where you want to be.

And remember that with the space being 30x30x30, that's each one a three story space; a 15' diameter tower, as it were. Put in floors, ladders, stairs. Browse the old "101 uses for a portable hole" article from Dragon Magazine for ideas, but a three story building with wooden walls and floor(s) can make building into it relatively easy, even if the door only exists for one hour per day. And if you CAN find a way (DM) to attune a fork to the space, plane shift can allow access both ways without using an 8th level slot or a warlock's once-per-long-rest.
It doesn't have the unseen servant staff or the food production of Magnificent Mansion, but it doesn't implode after each visit, either....

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It would take days to get an entire army through a door that is only open for an hour. Then more days to get them back out again. In the mean time, that first small portion of the army is in hostile territory. While you are dividing your army out into enemy territory over several days, you risk the loss of those portions. A large demiplane wouldn't be a grand instant army mover.

I want to make a joke about held actions and the whole army movieing in 6 seconds...

 

[Argyle King]

Is the created Demiplane assumed to have breathable air; normal time passage; and etc?

 

[Cruentus]

I have never heard of any such lore, and it conflicts with a lot of stuff I have seen, like the 3E Epic Handbook, which has rules for spells going up to 25th level.

Do you have a primary source for this? A book published by Wizards or TSR, with a page number?

Not related to 12th level spells, but the Ruins of Myth Drannor Box Set, and/or The Fall of Myth Drannor, both in FR, both Ad&d era, included rules and spells for 10th level spells, many of which were used in the creation of Myth Drannor and the Mythals. Those are the only references and spells in an official TSR/WOTC product that I have seen that go above 10th. They include rules for playing during the creation/height of Myth Drannor, where higher level magic did exist.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The thread necromancy is strong with this one. Revived at least twice, from what I can see.

The simple answer to the thread is that demiplane was nerfed because CREATING YOUR OWN MINI REALITY is a bit of a powerful thing and probably had been excessive from the beginning. As much as I love the spell it was definitely OP in 3.X/PF.