Why do casters get BAB?

[Grand Poobah]

But fighters survive over 100 magically enhanced fights without learning anything about how magic works?

Interesting perspective...

But it is easier to swing a sword in at least a somewhat threatening manner than learn the verbal and somantic components of a spell. Also, would the small increases to will saves reflect a growing understanding of, and resistance to, spells that affect that most annoying of fighter weaknesses... his brain?

Just playing Devil's advocate by the way.

 

[kitcik]

But it is easier to swing a sword in at least a somewhat threatening manner than learn the verbal and somantic components of a spell. Also, would the small increases to will saves reflect a growing understanding of, and resistance to, that most annoying of fighter weaknesses... his brain?

Just playing Devil's advocate by the way.

I think this is a bit of a tangent, so this will be my last post on the side topic of injecting realism into the "zero BAB" approach - if you want realism, D&D is not your game. My proposal is to change a game mechanic to inject more balance between classes. If I wanted to do it through realism, I would simply ban spells.

That said, here we go:
- I think I am a typical D&D player. I have a white collar job. I jog and occasionally work out, but do not consider myself an athlete. I don't fight people.
- If I were to have 100 bouts in the Ultimate Fighting League, I don't think I would learn much. I think I would be beaten to a bloody pulp 100 times.
- Wizards may occasionally be forced to melee, but only as a last resort. If they had zero BAB, they would avoid it even more. And, during their off time, they are practicing magic not melee. I really don't think they would pick up much in the way of melee skills. I think that if they melee at 20th level they should still get the crap kicked out of them by, say, a troll.

 

[frankthedm]

Um.... how about for figuring the Ranged Touch Attack of Ray spells?

Simple, turn them into Reflex Save Negates. A far more balanced option.

 

[Shin Okada]

Simple, turn them into Reflex Save Negates. A far more balanced option.

At higher level games (I mean, 15+), save nagates spells become really weak.

Save half may work. But making ray (or other ranged touch spells) into save nagates will make encounters against higher level monsters (especially outsiders and dragons) really hard.

 

[Li Shenron]

Um.... how about for figuring the Ranged Touch Attack of Ray spells?

They could be balanced back in other ways.

 

[Rampant]

Or maybe BaB isn't just how to attack? Maybe it also represents general experience at tussling and how to aim, aim is important for mages.

Maybe's it's an abstract concept designed to provide a baseline for all creatures in the game so that they are running similar mechanics and thus part of the system rather than trying to make every single class and monster its own game.

Every class in 3e gets skills, saves, bab, and hit points so multi-classing can work out on some level, so combat maneuvers aren't instant kills at low levels, so mages have spells that work against monsters with high saving throws, and so casters buffing themselves isn't a waste of time.

 

[Buugipopuu]

My proposal is to change a game mechanic to inject more balance between classes.

You're fixing the wrong thing. The reason why Wizard is the best class is because utility spells are too good, not because a Wizard is as good with a crossbow as a Warrior of half his level.

 

[kitcik]

Or maybe BaB isn't just how to attack? Maybe it also represents general experience at tussling and how to aim, aim is important for mages.

Maybe's it's an abstract concept designed to provide a baseline for all creatures in the game so that they are running similar mechanics and thus part of the system rather than trying to make every single class and monster its own game.

Every class in 3e gets skills, saves, bab, and hit points so multi-classing can work out on some level, so combat maneuvers aren't instant kills at low levels, so mages have spells that work against monsters with high saving throws, and so casters buffing themselves isn't a waste of time.

They still get BAB, it's just zero.

Note that one thing missing from your list of "every class gets" is spells. If casters get spells and melee'ers don't, what do melee'ers get that casters don't?

Not sure why casters need BAB (other than the aforementioned ranged touch spells, for which we have two proposed solutions already). You say "aiming is important for mages" - but truth be told, other than rays, their other spells automatically go wherever they want --> so there must be some magical (non-BAB) aiming going on.

Giving casters zero BAB would not change any mechanics in the game, and would not give casters their own mechanic (unlike spells, which do give casters their own mechanic), it would simply take away a benefit that maybe should be left to melee'ers.

Casters have many ways to buff themselves that don't involve BAB. Anything that prevents damage, increases AC, increases any stat other than Str, Haste, etc., etc., etc. I hardly think giving zero BAB makes buffing a waste of time. I haven't seen too many mages casting Bull's Strength on themselves.

Also, I don't think many high-level casters rely on ray spells against creatures with high saves. Methinks buffs, de-buffs and "no-saves" are more likely to be used.

 

[kitcik]

You're fixing the wrong thing. The reason why Wizard is the best class is because utility spells are too good, not because a Wizard is as good with a crossbow as a Warrior of half his level.

Yes, this is correct. The true way to fix the balance is likely to make casting times and interruptions more like 1E.

But the idea here is a multi-step process. First, you give casters zero BAB. Then, you tie additional benefits to BAB (see the OP)>

For instance, if you got one additional action per round per 5 points of BAB. Or if you could increase the size of your 5' step by 5' for every 5 points of BAB. Things that break the action economy would be of great use to melee'ers.

Let's say that you could full attack, then ready your extra action(s) to fire at the opposing caster if they cast. At least it is interesting IMHO.

EDIT: more ideas - +1 untyped to initiative for every 5 BAB, SR based on BAB.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

They could be balanced back in other ways.

But then you're creating a second set of rules for doing the exact same thing (not everyone with a touch attack is using spells). That is highly inelegant.