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Why do D&D players put such an emphasis on rules and tactics?

Yora

Legend
A social wallflower may want to play a suave ladies' man or a cunning con man. A player not good with puzzles may want to play Sherlock Holmes. Mechanics for social interaction and investigation, respectively, permit the player to do so. Why should that not be permitted? If the player's oratorical skills, glibness or investigative skills determine success in these areas, then the player can only play his own skills, not those of the fictional character he envisions.

And I think that's not the case. People who are bad at telling the GM what their character wants to do will certainly not be better at convincing the rest of the group what they should be doing. When it comes to making plans and descisions, the other more vocal and active players would still do all the planning and once a descision has been made, the player with the high Charisma character is told that they need him to make a skill check now.
Combat is a physical activity, negotiating a purely verbal one. And playing the game is a verbal and social activity and not a physical one. That's an important difference. These two aspects of the game are not the same thing.

Being awesome as manipulation is not something that can be emulated the same way as being awesome at swordfighting. I did have quite a number of players in my groups who tended to sit back and do their part, but leave the planning and descision making mostly to a smaller group of three or maybe four players, who do 90% of the talking. And never did any of them want to play a character who is a great talker.
I see where the idea is coming from, but I just don't think it's really the case.
 

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N'raac

First Post
Same goes in games. If you want role play, you need to reward role play and the best way to do that is through mechanics which reward role play. So, the guy who buckles his swash is more effective than the guy who is playing Combat Bingo.

I mean, there's a reason that pretty much every other gamer out there looks down on D&D gamers as the nadir of role play.

I think you can encourage or discourage certain role play by rules. The GM can also encourage or discourage role play (for example, whenever our Swashbuckler does anything but swing to hit or miss, the GM rolls his eyes and announces some failure - the chandelier can't hold your weight - GM call; a sword strike while swinging from the chandelier takes -8 to hit and does half damage - mechanical discouragement). But, for many players, role play is its own reward. Punish it and the player may stop, or may just find a group with a play style suited for his play. You can certainly role play a character's personality, both in and out of combat, with or without mechanical awards.

In many groups, the reward is the admiration of your peers "That was really cool" carries no mechanical reward, but it will be remembered long after a +2 bonus to hit has been forgotten.

And I think that's not the case. People who are bad at telling the GM what their character wants to do will certainly not be better at convincing the rest of the group what they should be doing. When it comes to making plans and descisions, the other more vocal and active players would still do all the planning and once a descision has been made, the player with the high Charisma character is told that they need him to make a skill check now.

A player who is a poor orator and running a character with an 18 CHA and maxed out interaction skills should be FAR better at, say persuading the Captain of the Guard that their presence in the local graveyard at 2 AM with shovels was for very good reasons, and he should leave them to it (an extreme example, to be sure) than a player who is glib and well spoken, whose character has an 8 CHA and no investment in social skills. I doubt either player will not know it would be great to persuade this fellow that they are not up to nefarious activity, but only one character has the social skills to have a shot a pulling it off. Both should get a bonus for raising the recent incursion of Zombies on the locals, but the high CHA character Hs a much better shot at presenting the case so as to persuade the Captain that we are here to stop those incursions, not because we are responsible for them.

Combat is a physical activity, negotiating a purely verbal one. And playing the game is a verbal and social activity and not a physical one. That's an important difference. These two aspects of the game are not the same thing.

They are different in some respects and similar in others. The fact is, some people are better at physical activities, and others are better at verbal, or social, or any other, activities. If the player’s abilities determine success at social activities, then all that’s left for them to invest resources in will be combat – their character abilities won’t change their chances of success. You stutter and look at your shoes, so you can never play a persuasive Orator. The glib layer can, and he gets to be as good at combat as you are. To me, that limits the game inequitably.

Being awesome as manipulation is not something that can be emulated the same way as being awesome at swordfighting. I did have quite a number of players in my groups who tended to sit back and do their part, but leave the planning and descision making mostly to a smaller group of three or maybe four players, who do 90% of the talking. And never did any of them want to play a character who is a great talker.
I see where the idea is coming from, but I just don't think it's really the case.

They did not want to, or they have learned that they cannot change the mechanics in any way, so attempting to play such a character is an exercise in futility? I find it hard to believe there are no players out there who want to play someone better at social skills than they are. Maybe your players are the exception, or maybe players who want this don't get it from your game, so they either accept that and stop trying, or they find a group which allows them to effectively play the character they want to play.

Sure, the players may discuss what they want to accomplish and how. In combat, one player might suggest another use a specific ability, engage a certain opponent, or use a certain tactic (“if you make a 5’ step, you can Flank”), but the player’s great tactics don’t mean he can describe the skilled knifefighting of his Wizard to get a to hit and damage bonus on par with the Fighter. So why should the glib orator be able to use those skills to make his social outcast character as good a persuasion as the 18 CHA bard?

You make a character, and you play that character. He has strengths you lack, and you have strengths he lacks. He's not "you in a different body".
 

howandwhy99

Adventurer
Now this is not a bash. If you get a kick from the game in any way, for whatever reason, then good luck to you….but…

If you look down all discussions in the forum, the most common theme we get from most of them is deconstructing the mechanics behind various Classes to see which one is the most effective in combat situations, or what have you.
This is largely because the "rules" came out from behind the screen around 2nd ed. (at least officially) and we've suffered rules lawyers ever since. Players are playing the game on the messageboards by determining the best options for building their characters.

Now, I may be old-fashioned here but I do take some solace from the ‘old school’ aspects in the new edition of the game, that attempts to simplify rules and re-emphasise narrative aspects of playing characters in interesting stories (and spectacularly imaginative worlds!). So maybe I’m not that old fashioned after all! :)
Old School means the rejection of "narrative" game elements and storytelling in games for RPGs that reward actual game play instead. I.e. the strategic thinking you're dismissing below. Old School is game play. New School is conflating group storytelling with gaming. There is no such thing as storytelling or stories in actual games (or even roleplaying).

When I look at the character classes, what I look for is how well they’ll fit with a particular character I have in mind, or how cool they would be to play (in a narrative alter-ego way). The last thing I really care about is the best combo of abilities or what mechanical advantage they may or may not have over the other classes. I do recognise that combat and strategic play have their place in the game, but it isn’t the be-all-and-end-all of how you can have fun with it.
Yes, actually playing a game strategically is the fun games are designed to support. It's why games are so rigorously measured and balanced and designed as patterns. Strategizing is the be-all-and-end-all of fun, at least in games. Sure, you can treat a game as something else, but they are designed to support game play and that's what a well designed game delivers.

I’m not claiming some sort of superiority in all this - I’m just a gamer like everyone else here - but what gives?
It's good to ask questions if we are don't understand what's going on. To make it simple: Games are about pattern recognition. Our community has spent over a decade engaging with D&D that way through character creation as often as not. So that variety of game play is actually occurring online too.
 

Old School means the rejection of "narrative" game elements and storytelling in games for RPGs that reward actual game play instead. I.e. the strategic thinking you're dismissing below. Old School is game play. New School is conflating group storytelling with gaming. There is no such thing as storytelling or stories in actual games (or even roleplaying).

No it doesn’t. I regard myself as an Old School player to a degree, and what to means to me is rejecting needless complexity or straightjacketing rules in games. I don’t reject ‘narrative’ elements - I reject rules that insist I play the game in a predetermined way. I like to provide the narrative play through my own experiences at the table, rather than what is prescribed. By extension, I also find game rules that get presented through increasingly dense rule-sets a turn off. That can be due to rules to simulate tactical play or excessive narrative mechanical devices.

In short, I like D&D5 and Fiasco but I’m not a fan of D&D4 or The Burning Wheel.
 


neonagash

First Post
Now this is not a bash. If you get a kick from the game in any way, for whatever reason, then good luck to you….but…

If you look down all discussions in the forum, the most common theme we get from most of them is deconstructing the mechanics behind various Classes to see which one is the most effective in combat situations, or what have you.

Now, I may be old-fashioned here but I do take some solace from the ‘old school’ aspects in the new edition of the game, that attempts to simplify rules and re-emphasise narrative aspects of playing characters in interesting stories (and spectacularly imaginative worlds!). So maybe I’m not that old fashioned after all! :)

When I look at the character classes, what I look for is how well they’ll fit with a particular character I have in mind, or how cool they would be to play (in a narrative alter-ego way). The last thing I really care about is the best combo of abilities or what mechanical advantage they may or may not have over the other classes. I do recognise that combat and strategic play have their place in the game, but it isn’t the be-all-and-end-all of how you can have fun with it.

I’m not claiming some sort of superiority in all this - I’m just a gamer like everyone else here - but what gives?

In part its a self fulfilling cycle. People who arent that interested in rules debates look and see a whole front page of rules debates. Rather then trying to swim upstream against a perceived board preference they just check a different board and look for active threads about the things they are interested in.

And on the other hand a person interested in rules debates see a bunch of rules debates say "yippee" and dive right in.... adding to the rules debate overload.
 

Afrodyte

Explorer
Now this is not a bash. If you get a kick from the game in any way, for whatever reason, then good luck to you….but…

If you look down all discussions in the forum, the most common theme we get from most of them is deconstructing the mechanics behind various Classes to see which one is the most effective in combat situations, or what have you.

Now, I may be old-fashioned here but I do take some solace from the ‘old school’ aspects in the new edition of the game, that attempts to simplify rules and re-emphasise narrative aspects of playing characters in interesting stories (and spectacularly imaginative worlds!). So maybe I’m not that old fashioned after all! :)

When I look at the character classes, what I look for is how well they’ll fit with a particular character I have in mind, or how cool they would be to play (in a narrative alter-ego way). The last thing I really care about is the best combo of abilities or what mechanical advantage they may or may not have over the other classes. I do recognize that combat and strategic play have their place in the game, but it isn’t the be-all-and-end-all of how you can have fun with it.

I’m not claiming some sort of superiority in all this - I’m just a gamer like everyone else here - but what gives?

In my experience, I think that a lot of it has to do with players who have experienced a more adversarial style of DMing and have learned to prioritize mechanics over narrative. So they get certain fixed notions about what D&D is and what it's for, and that colors how they approach every D&D game.

I started noticing it when I paid attention to what players who weren't deep into D&D brought to the table. What I find is that players new to D&D don't come with preconceived notions, and they tend to talk about their characters in terms of personality, motivations, and general capabilities.
 

Oryan77

Adventurer
In my experience, I think that a lot of it has to do with players who have experienced a more adversarial style of DMing and have learned to prioritize mechanics over narrative.
I had kind of a similar, but opposite thing happen to me. I was a DM, that had a boatload of adversarial players during the first half of the 3.5 era. I came from 2e and was used to being very loose with the rules. Then I get into 3.5e and started playing with new players and I was consistently bombarded by rules-lawyers and argumentative players. To the point where I knew that in order to keep a group together, I had to learn and run the 3.5 rules correctly to the point that I could be a rules lawyer myself. Unfortunately, that's exactly what I turned into and I hate it. I still run 3.5e, and these days I really try to be as loose with the rules as I can get away with. It's still extremely hard to do even with the great group that I have now. People just can't let go of the rules anymore these days.

Just last session a player argued with me because the squares my NPC took during his withdraw still allowed for the PC to get an AoO when I didn't realize he did indeed get one. And after the debate about it (he was right), all I had to do is tell him that this NPC isn't stupid enough to risk getting hit like that and all he had to do is move over one square to take a slightly different path to avoid his AoO. It's just exhausting dealing with these sort of rules debates mid game and there really isn't any way around it unless you play a different game.

[/QUOTE]I started noticing it when I paid attention to what players who weren't deep into D&D brought to the table. What I find is that players new to D&D don't come with preconceived notions, and they tend to talk about their characters in terms of personality, motivations, and general capabilities.[/QUOTE]
That's exactly why I like to DM for new players. Whenever I hear or even read players talking about all the mechanical crap that their PCs could do and nothing about anything they did outside of combat, I cringe. It's the guys that talk about the things their PCs did that didn't have to do with mechanics that are the guys I prefer having in my games.
 

am181d

Adventurer
Old School is game play. New School is conflating group storytelling with gaming. There is no such thing as storytelling or stories in actual games (or even roleplaying).

People have been using RPGs (including D&D) to tell stories as far back as the early 80s, and this play style has always been supported by the rules, printed GM and player advice, etc. I don't see much point in creating new definitions for words that don't match up to commonsense usage.
 

Grainger

Explorer
Yeah, as a BECMI (and sometime 2e) player, I'd say we went more with the story-telling/role-playing than with tactical side of things. Sure, there were plenty of power-gamers and hack-and-slash players back then (and by the way, both tended to be frowned upon by RPG magazines) but there was nothing like the level of tactical obsession that is around today. AD&D was criticised for being rule-bound even back then, and there was nothing like the dissection of the rules going on by players.

All the character optimisation talk may simply be a function of the Internet, or an result of the play style from 3.0 onwards, or a result of the type of players attracted to the modern game, or a combination of all three - I'm not sure. While it's true most of us didn't have the Internet back then in order to discuss such things, it's worth noting that today's BECMI forums are not full of character optimisation talk.
 

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