Why do half-orcs have -2 stat adjustment?

[Whimsical]

I give half-orcs +2 to Intimidate and the Toughness feat.

 

[Kaodi]

But!

Should " inflexible " be a term you should be able to apply to a core race?

Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard

Here's a rough look at the different races, feel free to disagree.

Humans, of course, can be good at any class.

Dwarves make good barbarians, poor bards, good clerics, average druids, good fighters, average monks, average paladins, average rangers, average rogues, poor sorcerers and good wizards.

Elves make poor barbarians, good bards, average clerics, average druids, average fighters, average monks, average paladins, average rangers, good rogues, good sorcerers, good wizards.

Gnomes make poor barbarians, good bards, average clerics, good druids, poor fighters, average monks, poor paladins, average rangers, good rogues, good sorcerers, good wizards.

Half-Elves can be average or good at any class.

Half-Orcs make good barbarians, poor bards, poor clerics, average druids, good fighters, good monks, awful paladins, good rangers, average rogues, poor sorcerers, poor wizards.

Halflings make poor barbarians, good bards, average clerics, average druids, poor fighters, average monks, poor paladins, average rangers, good rogues, good sorcerers, good wizards.

Like I said, you may disagree, but from my viewpoint, half-orcs don't have enough variety to be a good core race. Of all the real spellcasting classes, they are only average at one, the druid, and poor at the rest. And the only reason they don't make poor druids in my opinion is because druids have 4 + Int skill points per level, instead of 2 + Int. They only have one defining bonus, +2 str, because I don't think any picks a character race based on darkvision, unless maybe you expect to be adventuring in the Underdark. And yes, they get Orc Blood. But in purely Core D&D, what does that get you? The added bonus of being able to be affected by orc bane weapons.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Should " inflexible " be a term you should be able to apply to a core race?

...

Like I said, you may disagree, but from my viewpoint, half-orcs don't have enough variety to be a good core race.

Your point has much merit.

They may not be a "good" Core race insofar as we could probably come up with something more interesting out of whole cloth if we tried. I guess I do not see much downside to investing a few pages exploring the realm of reasonable +0 LA races in the PHB.

The Half-Orc is just the first and simplest example of the "LA problem". When you have a race with some natural amount of focus, by virtue of high physical stats or high mental stats or whatever, the reasonable LA adjustment for a character built around the forte is crazy sucky when the character wanders into any other class.

 

[Deset Gled]

Should " inflexible " be a term you should be able to apply to a core race?

...

Half-Orcs make good barbarians, poor bards, poor clerics, average druids, good fighters, good monks, awful paladins, good rangers, average rogues, poor sorcerers, poor wizards.

Considering the the entire schtick of the human race is being flexible, I don't find the fact that half orcs are a little inflexible to be problematic at all.

Also, I disagree with your assessment of half orcs being poor clerics. In my experience, it is quite the opposite. There are plenty of cleric builds that don't require great turning to be very powerful, and one less skill point per level is not a very big deal IMO.

 

[Zimbel16]

Elves make poor barbarians, good bards, average clerics, average druids, average fighters, average monks, average paladins, average rangers, good rogues, good sorcerers, good wizards.

I disagree. Elves make poor Wizards and Sorcerers, simply due to their Con penalty on top of a d4 HD. Their weapon profs make them into good clerics and druids.

Gnomes make poor barbarians, good bards, average clerics, good druids, poor fighters, average monks, poor paladins, average rangers, good rogues, good sorcerers, good wizards.

I disagree. Gnomes have both slow speed and small size, both of which are bad for a monk. Furthermore, Str (the stat that they get a penalty to) is the most important stat for a melee monk build.

Half-Orcs make good barbarians, poor bards, poor clerics, average druids, good fighters, good monks, awful paladins, good rangers, average rogues, poor sorcerers, poor wizards.

1/2 orcs make fine Clerics, unless you want to focus on Turn Undead (the only essential skill at most levels is Concentration). I'd put them down as "poor" Druids - -2 to two mental stats starts to hurt at LV 5+, when your physical stats no longer matter as much. They also make good rogues, if Darkvision is critical (typically low levels only).

Halflings make poor barbarians, good bards, average clerics, average druids, poor fighters, average monks, poor paladins, average rangers, good rogues, good sorcerers, good wizards.

I disagree. Halflings have both slow speed and small size, both of which are bad for a monk. Furthermore, Str (the stat that they get a penalty to) is the most important stat for a melee monk build.

Like I said, you may disagree, but from my viewpoint, half-orcs don't have enough variety to be a good core race. Of all the real spellcasting classes, they are only average at one, the druid, and poor at the rest. And the only reason they don't make poor druids in my opinion is because druids have 4 + Int skill points per level, instead of 2 + Int. They only have one defining bonus, +2 str, because I don't think any picks a character race based on darkvision, unless maybe you expect to be adventuring in the Underdark.

That one varies a lot depending on the campaign; in some games, darkvision is crical to have or obtain (I ran such a game where every PC was a sneak - yes, including the Fighter and the Cleric).

And yes, they get Orc Blood. But in purely Core D&D, what does that get you? The added bonus of being able to be affected by orc bane weapons.

You also are vulerable to Favored Enemy: Orc

In any case, although I'm quibbling on details, I agree with your overall thrust: 1/2 orcs have a limited set of good choices of class, largely due to the ability penalties. I don't think that this is necessarily a horrible thing; in terms of usefulness to the game, there are dozens of spells in the PH that I'd drop before the 1/2 Orc. On the other hand, I have no problem with improving their power very slightly to help them be around as strong of a race, on average, as a dwarf. I'd probably give them 1-3 minor bonuses instead of removing one of their penalties.

 

[Storyteller01]

IMHO, I don't feel that half-orcs have gotten the shaft at all. STR is a very powerful stat and the +2 half-orcs get should not be taken lightly. Every half-orc PC that I've adventured with has always been a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield. So the -2 penalties to INT and CHA are definitely needed to keep half-orcs from being over powered.

Plus, the -2 penalties add a nice flavor. They are half-ORC afterall!

I dunno. Anyone playing a half-orcish type character in my camapaign used to go the hobgoblin route. We didn't get a half-orc until my HohF: Half-orcs game in. Even then, only one player tried it.

 

[Finley DaDum]

One other point:
Half-Orcs do well if the campaign is using point buy for stat generation. They can start with an 18 Str for only 10 pts vs. 16 for anyother race and then can use those extra pts to keep their mental stats at a respectable level. If the campaign doesnt penalize low Charisma much its even more powerful just let go at 6. There is hardly ever likely to be a reason that your Charisma will matter if it is 6 or 8 so its almost like no penalty.

Comparison of Half-Orc vs. Human for point buy for a Fighter or Barbarian, using 28pts.
Half-Orc: Str-18 (10) Dex-14 (6) Con-14 (6) Int-10 (4) Wis-10 (2) Chr-6 (0)
Human: Str-18 (16) Dex-12 (4) Con-12 (4) Int-10 (2) Wis-10 (2) Chr-8 (0)
Now of course the human could drop the str to 16 and pull up the Dex, Con and one of the mental scores but the losing the Str for a combat character is big drop. A Dwarf compares more favorably gaining higher Con without pushing into the higher costing 15+ scores

That being said if your DM allows it, an Orc is a much better choice than a Half-Orc.

Oh I will join the chorus Half-Orcs make at least average Clerics overall, largely because they make great combat clerics. If you don't agree Grod, Cleric of Hextor would like 2 have a word with you (and that word is SMITE).

I will agree though with the general consensus, they have a much more limited set of classes that they can excel at that then the other core races.

I do house rule them as well allowing the character to take their penalty to either Int or Chr as their choice which really opens up virtually every class as a posibility.

 

[ByteRynn]

I played a half-orc from levels 2-20 in a homebrew campaign (well, we CALLED it an Orc, but used modified half-orc stats) and it was pretty fun. I was a plate-wearing, shield bashing brute of a fighter, and the party's leader.

Our changes to half-orc kept all base traits, added weapon familiarity for the Double-Axe, +2 racial to Intimidate and Survival, +2 to all fortitude saves, and gave them an ability called "long-legged" that gave them +5 racial bonus to speed.

While they were still only really good at melee characters, their other bonuses were pretty enticing for characters that have a mobility/nature focus, because they were the only playable race FASTER than 30 ft. We felt this change was as good as a dwarf.

 

[Question]

The orc is definately better than the half-orc, but theres the slight problem of light sensitivity. A huge portion of the campaign will be in daylight.

 

[MarkB]

The orc is definately better than the half-orc, but theres the slight problem of light sensitivity. A huge portion of the campaign will be in daylight.

Yeah, but what does that get you? The Dazzled condition, as I recall - -1 to attacks and a few checks. Hardly a game-breaker. And there's an item in, I believe, Races of the Dragon called Sundark Goggles which only cost about 10 gp and eliminate these penalties at the cost of penalising a couple of skill checks.