Why do half-orcs have -2 stat adjustment?

[Staffan]

Actually, the Int penalty is pretty significant for a fighter. Many of the really good fighter feats are part of the Combat Expertise tree (e.g. Improved Trip), so a fighter wants Int 13+ in order to get full use out of his many feats.

That's not as significant for a barbarian, who can do pretty well with just the Power Attack feats and Weapon Focus, but a fighter really wants that Int 13+.

 

[Sejs]

Really what I feel it comes down to is that half orcs lack (as has been mentioned) all the little flavor bits that round out the race. As it stands, because of the general lack of features the unbalanced stats really stand out.

But give half-orcs a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate and Survival, a +2 bonus to save vs disease, weapon familiarity with orcish weapons (the double axe and shotput.. can't think of any others off the top of my head), and maybe the Endurance feat and bammo - not so glaring an issue anymore.



I think the problem with half-orcs is the simple fact that they feel... lazy. Like they were at the bottom of the list and everyone was tired and wanted to go home by the time their turn to get hashed out came around.

 

[Taraxia]

Ive heard the exact opposite most of the times, that mental stats are more valuable, as they are the only reliable means of raising spell DC, while melee damage is affected by a lot of other things.

Spell DC is irrelevant to any non-spellcasting class. However, your attack rating is at least *relevant* (if not all-important) to every class. Everyone needs to either make attacks or make touch attacks. Everyone will, once in a while, have to make an opposed grapple check. Everyone has to carry equipment. And so on.

 

[frankthedm]

Yeah, but what does that get you? The Dazzled condition, as I recall - -1 to attacks and a few checks. Hardly a game-breaker. And there's an item in, I believe, Races of the Dragon called Sundark Goggles which only cost about 10 gp and eliminate these penalties at the cost of penalizing a couple of skill checks.

In my experience there are some players who can not handle a penalty. I won't call them immature for not being able to handle a -1 sitting on their sheet somewhere, but others are free to do so. Those goggles sound like they transfer those penalties rather than alleviate them so that would not be enough for a player of that type. And a feat to be rid of the penalty is an unconceivable thought in their minds since that delays their uber kewl trick 3 levels.

 

[Storyteller01]

Smoked glass techniques may work just as well...

 

[Zimbel16]

Actually, the Int penalty is pretty significant for a fighter. Many of the really good fighter feats are part of the Combat Expertise tree (e.g. Improved Trip), so a fighter wants Int 13+ in order to get full use out of his many feats.

That's not as significant for a barbarian, who can do pretty well with just the Power Attack feats and Weapon Focus, but a fighter really wants that Int 13+.

You can always use items to pump your Int, as long as you didn't sink it too low.

 

[Pickaxe]

Ive heard the exact opposite most of the times, that mental stats are more valuable, as they are the only reliable means of raising spell DC, while melee damage is affected by a lot of other things.

I think in this case there's a distinction between bonuses and penalties. Clearly, the designers felt that a Strength bonus was too good to be balanced by one penalty, but obviously it does not work the other way around; Strength penalties are balanced by a single bonus for halflings and gnomes.

Mental stats are obviously important to spellcasters, and I think that is why there none for the core races; any race with a mental stat bonus would be a must-have for one or more spellcasting classes, allowing, for instance, the chance to get two bonus spells at first level (by boosting 18 to 20). Mental stat penalties simply remove the race from contention for certain spellcasting classes, but they still are viable for other classes.

I also agree that half-orcs are fine as clerics. It's interesting that dwarves are considered to be excellent clerics, when they get a Cha penalty just like half-orcs. Yes, dwarves don't get an Int penalty, but they also don't get 30' move.

--Axe

 

[ThirdWizard]

Yes, dwarves don't get an Int penalty, but they also don't get 30' move.

Thing about dwarves is, if you're using heavy armor or medium armor, their speed might as well be 30.

 

[Remathilis]

Consider this. Ability scores do alot of things that are not based on class or feats. Just looking at the raw functions (aka not class-based) things each score does, we see...

Str: + to melee hit, + to damage, carry capacity, climb/jump/swim checks, grapples/bonds.
Dex: + to hit ranged, + to Armor Class, Reflex Saves, Initiative checks Balance/Escape Artist/Hide/Move Silently/Open Lock/Ride/Sleight of Hand/Tumble/Use Rope checks.
Con: + to Hit Points, Fort Saves, Concentration checks, Holding your breath.
Int: Skill Points, Appraise/Craft/Disable Device/Forgery/Knowledge/Seach/Spellcraft checks.
Wis: Will Save, Heal/Listen/Profession/Sense Motive/Spot/Survival Checks.
Cha: Bluff/Disguise/Diplomacy/Handle Animal/Gather Info/Intimidate/Perform/Use Magic Device checks.

These are things all classes can and do use (every class uses skills, swings a weapon, makes a save, gets his AC hit, and takes hp damage) Now if you look at all the individual functions of the scores, you see that Strength does 5 things. Dex does 5, Con does 3, Int does 2, Wis does 2, Cha 1. (counting all skill checks as 1 thing if you want to make this more scientific, tally up what each individual skill bonus is worth).

If you were to see all the abilty scores modify and how many things a stat bump raises, you'd see the half-orc isn't so penalized.

Human/Half Elf: --
Elf: +5/-3 (net +2)
Dwarf +3/-1 (net +2)
Gnome +3/-5 (net -2)
Halfling +5/-5 (net 0)
Half-orc +5/-3 (net +2)

Barring class abilities, in things every character can/does do, dwarves, elves and half-orcs come out with an overall bonus of +2. Humans, half-elves and halflings all come out even, and poor gnomes get the shaft at a -2 net bonus (which is more than made up for in spell-like abilities).

 

[DerHauptman]

If your game is mostly in the daylight - take ORC Paragon for your first level its +1 BAB, 4 SP, +2 FORT a d10 HD and takes away your light sensitivity.

Its like barbarian minus the rage and speed.

Not a bad trade off for loosing that -1 to everything.

Played orcs in several games most always take paragon for 1st level if its a wilderness type game.

You can get a 20 STR for 10 points, get a decent CON (14) a +1 DEX (12) mod to go with your heavy armor and still have 10 points (in a 30 pt buy) to spend on your other stuff. Only one stat has to have a penalty if you do it right. 20, 12, 14, 10, 10, 8.

I'd go fighter with this guy vs barbarian. The good thing taking orc paragon is you get 4sp x 4 to start with instead of fighters 2.