D&D 5E Why Do Higher Levels Get Less Play?

[kigmatzomat]

I see a lot of people who feel like tier 4 must be all plane-hopping.

A goblin army proved to be a proper threat at 17th level. And it is a total shame this isn't covered in any WotC book. Many people use wars as hooks to start low level games but it's equally effective to start a higher level game. Assuming there was guidance on how to do such a thing.

And while I mean a proper 10-30,000 goblin army capable of threatening a major city, even a 2,000 goblin army broke up into 100 war bands of 20 roaming across a countryside can befuddle and infuriate a party of tier 3/4 adventurers, much as Romans and Persians were infuriated by gaul, hun, vandal, mongol and arab raiders.

The spells that cover large areas can only be used once or twice a day. You can't just let goblins scatter and run. You have to hunt them down and chasing down 20 goblins who scatter takes time. There are only so many places with hundreds of feet of unbroken sight lines.

• Antipathy? Only covers one acre. Go ahead and protect Westminster, we'll burn the rest of London.
• Mirage Arcane? Okay, a square mile covers Buckingham Palace, we'll burn the rest.
• Meteor swarm? Yeah, it could kill 800 goblins, if you could find 4 groups of 200 tightly packed goblins that weren't in contact with your own troops. You don't think goblins march or line up in nice clean ranks do you?

Conversely, where there are hundreds of feet of unbroken sight lines, PCs will discover they are exposed to dozens or even hundreds of goblin archers, 1/20th will roll a nat-20 each round. Death by a thousand cuts.

Divinations are much less de-railing when the answers are "they cover 100 square miles*, advance 20 miles a day and are within 20 miles of your position" and "they want destruction in the name of their gods, treasure and food, in that order"

*100 scattered war bands, each about a mile apart, in a 10x10 grid cover 100 square miles. Welcome to raiders. Give them mounts that can move at higher speed, covering even larger areas, and you have the huns and mongols. You could cover 10x as much in an utterly plausible army.

Sprinkle in some goblin champions and such who are intentionally avoiding higher level heroes to wipe out low level troops guarding 2nd and 3rd tier communities to maximize the bloodshed, devastation and looting in the wider periphery.

And this is just the beginning. Once a goblin army rips up a kingdom, other opportunistic predators will arrive. Frenemies claiming nearby territory to "protect the peaceful citizens whose leaders are too weak", banditry in areas where the troops were killed or recalled, various forces of monsters drawn by copious corpses, and quite plausibly undead raised by necromancers or undying emotion at the time of death or dying curses (if your setting supports those things).

Don't forget the internal politics. There's the initial shock of which nobles were killed in battle, who shamed themselves in the face of the enemy, and which nobles were impoverished. Add in complications from the new heroes who arose and are introducing new viewpoints and ideas (or old ones that failed or fell out of favor).
There will be internal opportunists and idealists, with a whole myriad of motivations taking advantage of power vacuums.

Refer back to the external threats, some of which will deploy less militaristic, but no less impactful, forces on the kingdom. Economic warfare (closing borders, predatory pricing), diplomatic combat (cutting off allies), funding internal strife, etc.

The aftermath can take years to unfold and decades to reach a stable "new normal."

 

[nevin]

It's already common knowledge around here that higher levels don't get much use. Instead of asking if we need those higher levels, I'd rather ask what it is about those higher levels than is making them less utilized to see if these are problems that can be remedied to make higher level play more appealing or not.

I've run a few high level games that were the end of campaigns and played in a few. Plus I've run some of the "high" level modules released over the years. Isle of the Ape and even one that was for up to 100th level characters that took the players to hell. High level play has a lot of problems some of which I don't think there will ever really be a solution for.

1. DM has to be able to pull an elephant out of his ass at any moment because someone might do something he forgot they could do. a few sessions ago had a player take out the mythic magic user secretly making the battle quite even. One spell in the wrong spot and a failed save it all turned. That's high level. you can spend 3 weeks tuning the encounters to prepare for the parties abilities and one mid to high level ability can screw all that tuning up.

2. High level games if you play in campaigns generally have consequences. Gods get pissed off about wishes, give thier cleric's miracles, reincarnate thier paladins (or anti-paladins) and send them after you. Hell might get involved, Heaven might get involved. There really aren't many Good High level sources to help inexperienced DM's the first time they step into the meat grinder. Also a lot of DM's and tables, I even did it a few times back in my childhood, decide to run a "high" level game and without the story and the gods and all the other stuff, you get the game you hear about on the forums where the mage makes 15 simalcrums and wishes himself out of everything, or the Paladin get the uber relics and becomes completely invincible , or the one secret evil character kills everyone and walks away whistling into the night. Lousy way to end a game that took that much effort. Only the winner get's any satisfaction and even the DM leave the table regretting it.

3. It takes tons, and I means 100's of tons of effort to make sure the characters all have thier niche and that they have the right magic items or DM special abilities to maintain thier niche so that the cleric, or mage or paladin or character with 5 classes doesn't just start taking over the game and making people feel that they aren't needed. Even when you get used to doing it, it's a permanent amount of bandwidth that is always running in your mind. But at the same time at that level every single character at some point is going to take over a scenario and single handedly "hulk smash" your planning and win far faster than you thought possible. And you have to remember at High level's that's the game as intended.

4. Too many people have only played high level where the DM kneecapped everything and tried to run it like a 7th level game and couldn't figure out why everyone hated it. Seriously you guys that do that. tape all but two fingers and try to type. It's the same thing.

5. Honestly the only time I've ever had High level play work it was the outgrowth of a campaign where all the guard rails of Gods, and consequences from all the orders and secret societies and even the inhabitants of the characters home towns etc gave the characters all the kinds of things that limit people from doing the things thier players would never do in real life because they worry about families, temples friends or even what thier own party would think. Those games generally can work but they are a lot of work and can make your poor DM nuerotic trying to keep track of all the moving parts of the world.

6. Another problem of High level games are the guys that think the bad guys doing the same kinds of things the PC's will do is lame and unfair. For instance if the PC's can teleport, scry and do all the things high level games can do, then thier enemies are going to move stuff in lead lined containers, make feints to get them to the wrong side of the world so they can act while the pc's aren't there etc. This isn't hinky unfair DM Hijinks, it's High level play. You are messing with Villains who take the time to figure out your past strategies and your abilities who will plan accordingly. If you don't like that stuff quit whining and play low level games. Was it unfair hijinks when Sauron Froze the mountains and forced the party to go through Moria? Of course it was nothing is fair at High Level.

7. But mostly it's Player overload trying to keep up with spells and abilities and 10 times that overload with DM trying to keep up with spells and abilities of the players and all the baddies and trying to remember which moving parts of the world will notice, care and possibly act when the pc's do things. It can be overwhelming.

8. My suggestion to anyone wanting to DM a high level game is start at low levels and then play up. You as the DM will have a much better feel for what everyone can do if you deal with them from 1st level to 15th level than if you just suddenly start at 10th level.

Unless someone cracks what they tried to do with the epic level handbook in 3rd or pathfinders Mythic Paths (which are much better but still really hinky) I don't think High level play will ever be a large part of the games played.

 

[Guest 7037866]

I keep going back to the idea that PCs and MOCs should have no more that ~7-8 things and just replace old stuff with new stuff.

Yep, having 20-30 or more different things going on it frankly crazy much for players to handle and DMs to deal with IMO.

Our homebrew gives PCs 5 things (2 standard, 3 choices) for class, 2 for race, and then you get 4 more as you level up, so maybe 12 at max (we're still playing around with the precise numbers).

You never get more, just what you have gets better.

 

[Clint_L]

Been thinking on this more, and I think the root of the problem may be narrative rather than mechanical.

Epic tier stories are novelties.

They are good end points. But if you’re saving the universe every week then…well, it’s just another Tuesday. The journey is the fun part, and the stakes that really drive stories, and RPGs, are personal.

Think of all your best times at the table. How many of them came from the silly, intense, sad, and otherwise emotionally engaging play between players and characters and their shared story, rather than from saving the world, or whatever? I’m betting almost all of them.

Don’t get me wrong, I love an epic battle. But part of being epic is being rare. Otherwise, it’s just another battle but with bigger numbers. I think epic tier play is rare because, with how D&D is designed, it’s more work to get the same experience.

 

[nevin]

Been thinking on this more, and I think the root of the problem may be narrative rather than mechanical.

Epic tier stories are novelties.

They are good end points. But if you’re saving the universe every week then…well, it’s just another Tuesday. The journey is the fun part, and the stakes that really drive stories, and RPGs, are personal.

Think of all your best times at the table. How many of them came from the silly, intense, sad, and otherwise emotionally engaging play between players and characters and their shared story, rather than from saving the world, or whatever? I’m betting almost all of them.

Don’t get me wrong, I love an epic battle. But part of being epic is being rare. Otherwise, it’s just another battle but with bigger numbers. I think epic tier play is rare because, with how D&D is designed, it’s more work to get the same experience.

High level play doesn't have to be saving the world. Remember it's all relative to your enemies. It could be saving the city. Or it could be as my current game is trying to find the lost soul of a PC. I agree though the Marvel movie of save the world every movie save the universe every third move get's freaking old. It's far more fun to have a high level game trying to wipe out the assassains guild or trying to deal with that pesky magic user/devil who keeps wishing reality wonky.

 

[tetrasodium]

I've run a few high level games that were the end of campaigns and played in a few. Plus I've run some of the "high" level modules released over the years. Isle of the Ape and even one that was for up to 100th level characters that took the players to hell. High level play has a lot of problems some of which I don't think there will ever really be a solution for.

1. DM has to be able to pull an elephant out of his ass at any moment because someone might do something he forgot they could do. a few sessions ago had a player take out the mythic magic user secretly making the battle quite even. One spell in the wrong spot and a failed save it all turned. That's high level. you can spend 3 weeks tuning the encounters to prepare for the parties abilities and one mid to high level ability can screw all that tuning up.

2. High level games if you play in campaigns generally have consequences. Gods get pissed off about wishes, give thier cleric's miracles, reincarnate thier paladins (or anti-paladins) and send them after you. Hell might get involved, Heaven might get involved. There really aren't many Good High level sources to help inexperienced DM's the first time they step into the meat grinder. Also a lot of DM's and tables, I even did it a few times back in my childhood, decide to run a "high" level game and without the story and the gods and all the other stuff, you get the game you hear about on the forums where the mage makes 15 simalcrums and wishes himself out of everything, or the Paladin get the uber relics and becomes completely invincible , or the one secret evil character kills everyone and walks away whistling into the night. Lousy way to end a game that took that much effort. Only the winner get's any satisfaction and even the DM leave the table regretting it.

3. It takes tons, and I means 100's of tons of effort to make sure the characters all have thier niche and that they have the right magic items or DM special abilities to maintain thier niche so that the cleric, or mage or paladin or character with 5 classes doesn't just start taking over the game and making people feel that they aren't needed. Even when you get used to doing it, it's a permanent amount of bandwidth that is always running in your mind. But at the same time at that level every single character at some point is going to take over a scenario and single handedly "hulk smash" your planning and win far faster than you thought possible. And you have to remember at High level's that's the game as intended.

4. Too many people have only played high level where the DM kneecapped everything and tried to run it like a 7th level game and couldn't figure out why everyone hated it. Seriously you guys that do that. tape all but two fingers and try to type. It's the same thing.

5. Honestly the only time I've ever had High level play work it was the outgrowth of a campaign where all the guard rails of Gods, and consequences from all the orders and secret societies and even the inhabitants of the characters home towns etc gave the characters all the kinds of things that limit people from doing the things thier players would never do in real life because they worry about families, temples friends or even what thier own party would think. Those games generally can work but they are a lot of work and can make your poor DM nuerotic trying to keep track of all the moving parts of the world.

6. Another problem of High level games are the guys that think the bad guys doing the same kinds of things the PC's will do is lame and unfair. For instance if the PC's can teleport, scry and do all the things high level games can do, then thier enemies are going to move stuff in lead lined containers, make feints to get them to the wrong side of the world so they can act while the pc's aren't there etc. This isn't hinky unfair DM Hijinks, it's High level play. You are messing with Villains who take the time to figure out your past strategies and your abilities who will plan accordingly. If you don't like that stuff quit whining and play low level games. Was it unfair hijinks when Sauron Froze the mountains and forced the party to go through Moria? Of course it was nothing is fair at High Level.

7. But mostly it's Player overload trying to keep up with spells and abilities and 10 times that overload with DM trying to keep up with spells and abilities of the players and all the baddies and trying to remember which moving parts of the world will notice, care and possibly act when the pc's do things. It can be overwhelming.

8. My suggestion to anyone wanting to DM a high level game is start at low levels and then play up. You as the DM will have a much better feel for what everyone can do if you deal with them from 1st level to 15th level than if you just suddenly start at 10th level.

Unless someone cracks what they tried to do with the epic level handbook in 3rd or pathfinders Mythic Paths (which are much better but still really hinky) I don't think High level play will ever be a large part of the games played.

This so much. So many people forget that a lot of high level spells were really designed for retired high level PCs who the current low level party might go to and even when the high level PC was being played vancian casting/prep regularly left a lot of them behind "yea it would be useful with this, but I don't have it prepared/can only cast it once. We would need to rest and give me time to prep it [while the world is moving on]".

I do run my games into higher levels fairly regularly and I'm more likely to hear a player report having but not preparing some niche low level spell like alarm knock or remove/detect poison than any of the high end niche divinations and such that I can expect to all be prepared just in case.

 

[nevin]

This so much. So many people forget that a lot of high level spells were really designed for retired high level PCs who the current low level party might go to and even when the high level PC was being played vancian casting/prep regularly left a lot of them behind "yea it would be useful with this, but I don't have it prepared/can only cast it once. We would need to rest and give me time to prep it [while the world is moving on]".

I do run my games into higher levels fairly regularly and I'm more likely to hear a player report having but not preparing some niche low level spell like alarm knock or remove/detect poison than any of the high end niche divinations and such that I can expect to all be prepared just in case.

I do miss the days when a mage had to spend a week or more memorizing all their spells if you got to that level. I may sound stupid but it really drove home how bad off you were going to be if you chose wrong. It's why I laugh at all the threads on how wizards are overpowered. I tend to play casters and in high level games I find I'm more often whining I didn't memorize the spell I need than ending the DM's great plan. I suspect most of those guys have either never played a caster at high level or played where thier DM didn't make them right down their choices and force them to stick with them.

 

[Scott Christian]

Other: One combat takes 1-3 hours.

Yes, it is more difficult for the DM to balance and throw wrenches. But for experienced DM, I don't think it is much of a problem. The simple fact that most of your session is spent waiting on a player to finish their ten-minute turn, then sit through them doing a two-minute reaction, that almost completely changes the battlefield, then sit through another player's ten-minute turn, then sit through the DM to cipher through three monsters that all have different abilities, then sit through another player's ten-minute turn, and then through the DM using monster reactions, then a legendary action or two, then you get to roll some dice. It just isn't as much fun as a lower-level combat that is just as dynamic.

 

[nevin]

Other: One combat takes 1-3 hours.

Yes, it is more difficult for the DM to balance and throw wrenches. But for experienced DM, I don't think it is much of a problem. The simple fact that most of your session is spent waiting on a player to finish their ten-minute turn, then sit through them doing a two-minute reaction, that almost completely changes the battlefield, then sit through another player's ten-minute turn, then sit through the DM to cipher through three monsters that all have different abilities, then sit through another player's ten-minute turn, and then through the DM using monster reactions, then a legendary action or two, then you get to roll some dice. It just isn't as much fun as a lower-level combat that is just as dynamic.

I think the fun if you play through a campaign to that level is all that slow boring play is rewarded by the PC's changing things and setting the stage for the next game. (Hopefully). Or at least getting to finish. But very good point. High level play can be painfully slow. I played in one group where the DM would ask once at your initiative what you did. If you weren't ready you held your turn, At the end he'd ask again and set out a 2 min egg timer. If you didn't declare by end of time you lost your turn. Some tables would revolt at that, I've always thought it was a good idea.

 

[payn]

IDK what we were doing wrong, but our average high level combat took about as much time as a low level combat. Occasionally, it might take 45-60 min to finish the entire combat if we are unprepared or getting our butts kicked and need to regroup and refocus. Thats like 1 out of 6 combats though.