D&D 5E Why Do Higher Levels Get Less Play?

[MerricB]

That's exactly what I did. I totally altered the plot and a bunch of encounters because...see my post above. I think "the multiverse is in danger!" plots are stupid, clichéd, and not remotely interesting. And I got rid of the Kas subplot because it was way too inside baseball for my group. So I reorganized the whole thing to tie into their character arcs.

The funny thing for me was my first 20 level 5e campaign WAS a “find the Rod of seven parts” plot. Well, the second half, after Xan Yae and St Cuthbert manifested near Veluna and starting leading armies… and they had to be stopped…

…not that I’d planned that at the start. Things snowballed after the PCs failed to deal with some bandits who ended up killing the High Priestess of Xan Yae as she was on a good will tour to Veluna…

The epic level stuff I do is best when it comes organically out of the campaign!

 

[GrimCo]

In stories, threats only matter if they are personal. It doesn't matter how high level the character is, if it's a threat to something they love, or a threat that forces them to confront their own weakness, that's when the story gets its hooks in. When the character has to change or die (possibly metaphorically).

Sure. But 5e high level characters ( tier 4) are powerhouses. Now, depending on the type of setting you run, those kind of characters can be so exceptionally rare that everyone knows about them (think Hercules level) and only very brave and very stupid try to mess with them. In a setting a la FR, where high level characters are dime a dozen and epic++ level characters roam around, sure, level 16 fighter is no big deal in grand scheme of things. I tend to run first kind of settings, where there are maybe dozen or so tier 4 characters in entire setting plus PCs, and most elites are in high tier 2 (like best fighter in the kingdom might be level 5-6, best on the continent might be 9-10). And then you have level 17-18 fighter PC who can b**ch slap them with one arm drunk.

And to be honest, my players (and me as a player) tend to play more antihero characters who never heard of Geneva convention. So mess with them or someone they love and care and see meteor swarm hit your home village in retaliation.

Plane level threats are just there so to have reason why they fight outsiders and such. There really aren't any vanilla humanoid CR15+ monsters, let alone CR20+.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

IIRC, the majority of campaigns still start at 1st level, or at the very least at low level. Most of those then collapse pretty much right away, and even the ones that don't average 6 sessions (or approx 24 hours of play). So there isn't much time to level up significantly.

Basically, there just isn't time to get there.

Why do they collapse? My campaigns generally run for about 2 years, and I’ve never had a “collapse”.

 

[delericho]

Why do they collapse? My campaigns generally run for about 2 years, and I’ve never had a “collapse”.

No idea. Perhaps the initial enthusiasm didn't match the play experience, or the group just didn't gel, or... something. I dunno.

But my understanding, based on old and half-remembered survey data, was that an awful lot of "campaigns" don't make it past the first session.

 

[Upper_Krust]

As someone with both a passion for and a vested interest in solving all the issues of Epic Tier (and above) play - to the extent I am writing some books on the subject (GOD RULES Player's Guide coming soon), I fully believe all the issues are easily fixable with the exception of "We need MOAR!"...as in we need more monsters, more magic items, more boons, more adventures, more epic locations etc. As a lone creator (albeit working with multiple artists) writing a big book takes a long time. You might well respond "Well then write a short book" but some topics just require x amount of pages to do justice to them and Epic/Immortal Tier play is, in my opinion, one of those topics.

• The leveling system takes too much time IRL to reach high levels

Leveling up is relatively rapid in 5E. However, one element I have borrowed from 1st Edition is that slaying a Demon Lord or Deity permanently nets 10 times the amount of XP. So Slaying Orcus permanently would be worth 900,000 XP etc.

• The number of things a PC can do gets overwhelming

True, but that should be offset by the players themselves being experienced enough with the game. Unless you are simply starting at 20th level with new players - which I don't recommend.

• DMs aren't interested in using high CR antagonists like demon lords

I disagree. I think, as many others have pointed out, there simply is not enough diversity of Epic Tier monsters to make Epic Tier campaigns interesting. I mean at least the new 2025 Monster Manual made a slight effort in this regard, but I think to flesh out Epic Campaigns (as opposed to simply an adventure or two) you need more than a few big monsters (welcome as that is); you need a mix of new epic races with support structures, epic templates and some monster building rules (even if those are narrowed by specific sub-types).

• High level PC spells make the game harder for DMs to account for

This is true, but I think with a mere handful of fixes the worst offenders can be mitigated.

• Players lose interest in PCs and want to make new ones

Given the proliferation of wishes, the ability to 'RESPEC' should be an option on the table.

• DMs lose interest in long-running campaigns and want to make new ones

This is always going to be a factor with any game. But (and someone else mentioned this earlier in the thread) always try to up the ante.

If any of you read manga, one of the ways these stories keep you hooked for years is by consistently upping the stakes and introducing new threats. Of course the immediate problem is that in D&D you cannot really do that because you run out of newer more powerful threats very quickly.

• Other (please explain in post)

The other major issue is Game Balance. But ironically I believe that is easier to fix once characters progress into Immortality, because when PCs have the safety net of 'death' being a mere speed-bump, it allows the DM to really go to town with the difficulty without worrying about potential TPKs. But I will discuss the specifics of this in my book.

Overall I think just having rules, monsters and adventures out there will both generate interest in and just as importantly facilitate Epic Campaigns for the groups that wish to try them.

20 years ago I released the Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary for 3rd Edition. In that book I included the Neutronium Golem which had a Challenge Rating of 9721. It was a bit ridiculous and far beyond all the other epic monsters in that book....but people loved it! Even though most people probably never intended to use it (just like most D&D campaigns don't use the Tarrasque) just the simple fact that such a monster existed got them curious, smiling (at the craziness) and invested.

...or to put it another way "If you build it, they will come."

 

[GrimCo]

Why do they collapse? My campaigns generally run for about 2 years, and I’ve never had a “collapse”.

Life gets in the way. Death by inactivity. From personal experience, you get excited, play 2-3 weekly sessions in the row, then you get couple of week where someone can't play, then you play session or two, then again couple of weeks of no play. Before you know, that 6 sessions was spread over 3-6 months in real time, momentum is gone.

I was in PF group that started new campaign early October and till today, there were 5 session. Next one is early March probably.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Life gets in the way. Death by inactivity. From personal experience, you get excited, play 2-3 weekly sessions in the row, then you get couple of week where someone can't play, then you play session or two, then again couple of weeks of no play. Before you know, that 6 sessions was spread over 3-6 months in real time, momentum is gone.

I was in PF group that started new campaign early October and till today, there were 5 session. Next one is early March probably.

I think establishing a routine is probably the trick to keeping things running. We play every other week, for not more than 3 hours, same day, same time. Any we only postpone if two or more players can’t make it.

 

[Staffan]

Actually want to mention this: Paizo has repeatedly said that they've gone from 6 book, 1-20 Adventure Path to 3 books, 1-10/11-20 is because those last three books in the old model consistently sell badly.

I'd be interested in seeing how the sales are doing for their three different AP styles: 1-20, 1-10, and 11-20. It seems they are making more 1-10s so I'm guessing those sell better, but it'd be neat to have more than a guess.

And PF2 is a game that actually works at higher levels. It mainly does so by constraining the system so you fundamentally play the same game at 15th as you do at 5th (primary combat numbers are kept in a fairly tight range, and the Incapacitation trait and countering rules means you need to use your highest level spell slots of your save-or-suck spells or for your countermagic), but it works.

 

[GrimCo]

I think establishing a routine is probably the trick to keeping things running. We play every other week, for not more than 3 hours, same day, same time. Any we only postpone if two or more players can’t make it.

Oh, we try to do that. Every Sunday, 9:30-12:30/13. If at least 4/6 of us can make it, we play (unless DM is one of those that can't). But we have hiatus for winter school holidays (2 weeks Christmas till Epiphany plus week in late February) and when we have national holidays that connect with weekend, plus, we don't play from mid July till mid September, cause standard 3 week summer vacation plus start of school year.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Oh, we try to do that. Every Sunday, 9:30-12:30/13. If at least 4/6 of us can make it, we play (unless DM is one of those that can't). But we have hiatus for winter school holidays (2 weeks Christmas till Epiphany plus week in late February) and when we have national holidays that connect with weekend, plus, we don't play from mid July till mid September, cause standard 3 week summer vacation plus start of school year.

We play a weekday evening. Weekends are much more likely to be taken up by other things, and we like to blow off steam after work.